Paperwhite Second Gen: First Impressions

[fearindex]

Originally Posted by Blossom

The problem is eInk varies so much some will have a good screen and maybe little to no yellow and some will have too much yellow and greyish text. So you can't go by anyone's posts here to make your decision. It's a gamble. You order and hope you get a good one that you are happy with.

Last year I waited till the third batch and I got a really good one on the first try. No color blobs and even lighting while others didn't have such good luck. It has nothing to do with me seeing things differently it has to do with Amazon's Quality Control which I know they could fix as they did it for the K4 when they released the improved version.

So it all comes down to do you want one bad enough to try it and return it till you get one you like if you're not one of the lucky ones.

I agree with your sentiment that there does seem to be un an unusual amount of quality variance in PW1/PW2. However, I do disagree this is the same thing as e-ink or improvements to e-ink on other Kindles (e.g. the improvements to Kindle 4 you mention around the time the black 4B or "5" version came out).

E-ink, by now, is mature technology. After some teething problems around the second generation of Kindle launch, these were sorted out and have been pretty much non-existent since then. Even those teething problems were nothing on the scale variance the PW1/PW2 and other frontlit readers seem to exhibit.

For example, I've had around three Kindle 3 Keyboards and four $79 Kindle 4/$69 Kindle 4B/5's (either for me or used them before giving to relatives etc.) and aside from the generational screen upgrade in the latter group (blacker text screen in late models), all have been equal in screen quality to their contemporaries. I am yet to see a single person report they have tried multiple PWs and consider the screens the same in direct comparison. Usually there is something different between the screens of two PWs... This difference isn't there between Kindle 3's and Kindle 4's with the same screen.

Pure E-ink readers, those without extra layers on top of the e-ink screen (even Kindle Touch doesn't have an extra layer since it uses IR touch, so it is pure e-ink), are probably one of the most consistent screen experiences you can get nowadays. I would argue it is much more common to see dead pixels, light bleed, unevenness in LCDs for example, than have any issues with a regular e-ink screen. That is one thing that makes regular e-ink so great for the demanding task of reading, which displays a very simple view that is very hard to portray "perfectly" - e-ink can do that. Most of the flaws in generic LCDs are usually hidden by the onslaught of moving image and the overall complexity of what is being displayed (not that there aren't still a lot of people that can't stand LCDs/LEDs with light bleed or dead pixels, a very common topic on related forums too).

Indeed, most of the issues people are reporting with PW1/PW2, the unevenness, pinholes, dust specks, shadows, milkiness, probably even the lack of contrast have to do with the added lightguide (and touch) layers over the e-ink screen. I bet if we'd get a regular e-ink version of the PW, without the touch layer and the lightguide, the screen experience would be very consistent and we'd be having none of this discussion.

On top of this apparent variance between PW1/PW2 units is another fact: People do see things differently. There have been multiple cases of people reporting "perfect" PWs and then posting images with pink and green splotches and whatnot. It's the same with televisions, very few average people care or see anything wrong with their sets, even if a more knowledgeable analysis can certainly point them out. Clearly PW1/PW2 is selling well and receiving good reviews, so overall people are liking the device a lot. Most people probably don't see anything wrong with the screen, even if there is something "wrong" with it.

It remains to be seen if frontlit e-ink can be brought to a higher quality level. LED/LCDs TVs are by now an old invention and that same unevenness still plagues them, because it would be too expensive to fix it all - some models are better than others of course, so it is a valid discussion to have amongst those who care about such things.

I think, for many of us old Kindle fans, this big thing here is that e-ink had gotten to such perfection in many ways - and now to have this uncertainty associated with a Kindle purchase in the PW1/PW2 age is a disappointment. And this isn't just about Kindle: similar concerns appear on other manufacturers with regular e-ink vs. frontlit e-ink models.

Luckily Amazon makes the baby Kindle, arguably one of the best e-ink experiences out there - the latest screen has inky blacks, very nice.

[fearindex]

Originally Posted by joehunt

I absolutely agree with you and just wanted to say something to those who feel angst about ordering one as a result of the comments posted here.

From what I can see the only prolific poster (PP) who posts positive comments about his PW2 is the only PP who actually owns one. On the other hand, one PP has admitted to never even seeing a PW2, other PPs have stated that they returned their PW2s after seeing imperfections that no one else could see, etc. etc. All of this should be taken into consideration when reading these comments.

And besides, I just can't understand the reason to post dozens and dozens of times about a product I do not/have never/no longer own. Personally, if I buy something and don't like it, I'll let my feelings be known and move on to something else.

There are a lot of people who on PW2 that comment about it here:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128460.525.html

Of course, over at KBoards, there is also a lot of perfectly happy PW2 owners. I don't doubt most are accurately, on both sides, reporting their own experience. All are valuable.

Some of us have really closely followed the whole frontlit e-ink reader discussion and participated in it ways before the PW2 release (I for example do have a PW and PW2 on international pre-order that starts shipping on the 15th) and there definitely is a pattern forming. I guess theoretically it might be misleading, as any Internet phenomenon, but I see the odds of that diminishing all the time to zero.

I agree that the average use probably won't see or care, though. Like they won't see or care about imperfections (dead pixels, light bleed, color unevenness) on their flatscreen TV. Yet the latter topic too are a very common and very valid topic on home theater enthusiast forums, because usually enthusiasts care more - they know more about the topic and have higher quality standards and expectations. The issues with LED/LCD televisions are definitely real, even though most people don't see a thing because they don't care.

Enthusiasts also care about the accuracy of information posted online, that's why they take part. Now, enthusiasts too may be wrong, get caught up in the argument too far or they may at worst be Internet trolls, but I think the purpose of forums like these is to hash out the best possible information on a given topic. Unfortunately the experience of the average person isn't the best possible information on most topics.

[JoHunt]

Originally Posted by fearindex

Enthusiasts also care about the accuracy of information posted online, that's why they take part. Now, enthusiasts too may be wrong, get caught up in the argument too far or they may at worst be Internet trolls, but I think the purpose of forums like these is to hash out the best possible information on a given topic. Unfortunately the experience of the average person isn't the best possible information on most topics.

Thank you very much for your well thought out comments. One would hope that this thread would be about first impressions by many different persons no matter what they experienced. It is however unfortunate that some "enthusiasts" have now begun to mock others for their opinions.

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by fearindex

I agree with your sentiment that there does seem to be un an unusual amount of quality variance in PW1/PW2. However, I do disagree this is the same thing as e-ink or improvements to e-ink on other Kindles (e.g. the improvements to Kindle 4 you mention around the time the black 4B or "5" version came out).

When the K4 first came out. It was in a Silver Bezel and the quality of contrast varied greatly. Some users went through 5 to 8 replacement before getting a good one. I went through one replacement and kept it and was never happy with it. Let me show you a pic. As you can see the K4 Silver contrasts sucks compare to my K4 Black which is just slightly better than my Kindle Keyboard which has good contrast.

I had a K3 first then order the K4S and It was like taking a step back from Pearl. Others agreed with me and others told me it was all in my head or my eyes. Some went through multiple exchanges and some got good ones on their first try. Then the K4B was released and I got an amazing one on the first try and to our surprise pretty much everyone else did too. We all sang the praises of the new K4B's amazing contrast because Amazon had actually fix that problem.

Fast forward to where the PW1 comes out and it's the same thing all over again! Contrast is okay but not as great as the K4B with the default fonts. Easy fix is to put a custom font on it and add some weight. Problem solved. So I was excited when Amazon announced the Carta screen I'm sure we all thought it would blow the PW1 out the door like the K4B did to the K4S but it's like they took a step back again when it comes to contrast. Once again the Quality Control isn't that great.

So while contrast on eInk varies I know Amazon can fix it like they did the K4 problem. Once you turn off the light on the PW underneath it's still just an eInk reader. All the light does is illuminate and distort the eInk underneath. If the eInk underneath is of quality like the K4S then it's going to look like crud once the light is on.

I have seem some PW2 pics with good contrast and I have seem some that remind me of my K4S. I do think the light on the PW2 seems to be stronger thus when you turn it up the look of the screen becomes white washed. It's what it looks like with the light off that counts. If the text isn't black then the contrast is going to be yucky once you turn the light on and the text is going to become too light to read with.

[Josieb1]

Originally Posted by joehunt

I absolutely agree with you and just wanted to say something to those who feel angst about ordering one as a result of the comments posted here.

From what I can see the only prolific poster (PP) who posts positive comments about his PW2 is the only PP who actually owns one. On the other hand, one PP has admitted to never even seeing a PW2, other PPs have stated that they returned their PW2s after seeing imperfections that no one else could see, etc. etc. All of this should be taken into consideration when reading these comments.

And besides, I just can't understand the reason to post dozens and dozens of times about a product I do not/have never/no longer own. Personally, if I buy something and don't like it, I'll let my feelings be known and move on to something else.

I cancelled my PW2 order because of reported defects on this thread by posters who have had them in their own hands, posters I don't believe have lied or exaggerated their own experience.

Also I ordered the PW1 for release date last year, and returned the first one due to screen defects. I kept the replacement for 11 months then returned that for screen defects and my third PW1 is the charm. That experience taught me that initial builds have issues, so I'll wait.

[JoHunt]

Originally Posted by Josieb1

I cancelled my PW2 order because of reported defects on this thread by posters who have had them in their own hands, posters I don't believe have lied or exaggerated their own experience.

No one is being accused of lying or exaggerating.

I read the comments here just out of interest, did not not cancel my order and am the happy owner of a perfect PW2.

[Josieb1]

Originally Posted by joehunt

No one is being accused of lying or exaggerating.

I read the comments here just out of interest, did not not cancel my order and am the happy owner of a perfect PW2.

If I didn't have personal issues right now I would probably have done the same, kept my pre order, but I don't want the hassle now of dealing with possible returns or replacements.

Or even the disappointment I experienced last year on the day I got my first PW1

[JoHunt]

Originally Posted by Josieb1

If I didn't have personal issues right now I would probably have done the same, kept my pre order, but I don't want the hassle now of dealing with possible returns or replacements.

I hope that all works out well for you

[fearindex]

Originally Posted by Blossom

When the K4 first came out. It was in a Silver Bezel and the quality of contrast varied greatly. Some users went through 5 to 8 replacement before getting a good one. I went through one replacement and kept it and was never happy with it. Let me show you a pic. As you can see the K4 Silver contrasts sucks compare to my K4 Black which is just slightly better than my Kindle Keyboard which has good contrast.

Thank you for the clarification and I apologize for misunderstanding your K4B reference as being a reference to the Kindle 4/5 screen swap to darker texted one.

Goes to show we learn more every day! Some are even more particular then I am. That is good info and great reason why places like this exist. I know Kindle 2 suffered similar woes for many Kindle 1 owners, although part of that was a feature of the new screen then, not an inconsistency.

I still think the level of issues on PW1 and possibly PW2 is on a whole different level though compared to any previous e-ink issues, due to the splotching, specks and LED color/inconsistencies introduced by the added layers. No?

[fearindex]

BTW: For me, all Kindles from 2 up to "5" or 4B have seen improvements in text blackness, with the exception of PW1 that is less black than Kindle 3 even.

[fearindex]

Originally Posted by Blossom

I have seem some PW2 pics with good contrast and I have seem some that remind me of my K4S. I do think the light on the PW2 seems to be stronger thus when you turn it up the look of the screen becomes white washed. It's what it looks like with the light off that counts. If the text isn't black then the contrast is going to be yucky once you turn the light on and the text is going to become too light to read with.

One more reply to this, I think this shows a difference in our perspective: I don't consider the PW issues with the light off because I read in the dark. Neither PW1 or PW2 turn the light fully off. My comparison is to lighted covered Kindles vs. PW at a comfortable light level.

I did, however, last year take a picture comparing my PW1 lights down as far as they go vs. the $69 Kindle 5/4B. For me the contrast of the screen isn't even the most worrying thing, it is the crooked screen, a pinhole and uneven lightning, although my PW is fairly OK as far as they go I believe... But the pic shows the difference in blackness well.

Pic here (PW1 vs. $69 Kindle):
http://www.kboards.com/index.php/top...tml#msg1923016

In PW2 what worries me the most is uneven lighting - I don't even mind hotspotting, but splotching is bad. Second thing is "dead pixels" in the form of pinholes or dust between the layers. Finally the color of the light is a concern. All unique to PW1/PW2 compared to other Kindles. I also believe those layers affect the blackness of the screen underneath, even with the light down.

I'd love to buy a PW2 without the light and with support for an integrated lighted cover!

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by fearindex

Thank you for the clarification and I apologize for misunderstanding your K4B reference as being a reference to the Kindle 4/5 screen swap to darker texted one.

Goes to show we learn more every day! Some are even more particular then I am. That is good info and great reason why places like this exist. I know Kindle 2 suffered similar woes for many Kindle 1 owners, although part of that was a feature of the new screen then, not an inconsistency.

I still think the level of issues on PW1 and possibly PW2 is on a whole different level though compared to any previous e-ink issues, due to the splotching, specks and LED color/inconsistencies introduced by the added layers. No?

Yes but it really all boils down to Quality Control and Contrast is the most important out of them all. If you can't read on the reader the other stuff really isn't going to matter but it would seriously suck to get a one with good contrast and have green glowing specks in the middle of the page. The blobs seems to be almost completely fixed on the PW2. So QC has improved in that case. Now we have a sepia issue. Yellow background with poor text contrast makes for one yucky reading experience then add in specks, pinholes and light bleeds and you really are taking a gamble getting a good unit. It's the PW1 all over again

[fearindex]

Originally Posted by Blossom

Yes but it really all boils down to Quality Control and Contrast is the most important out of them all. If you can't read on the reader the other stuff really isn't going to matter but it would seriously suck to get a one with good contrast and have green glowing specks in the middle of the page. The blobs seems to be almost completely fixed on the PW2. So QC has improved in that case. Now we have a sepia issue. Yellow background with poor text contrast makes for one yucky reading experience then add in specks, pinholes and light bleeds and you really are taking a gamble getting a good unit. It's the PW1 all over again

Sure, but QC on PWs is a whole different can of worms compared to past e-ink issues, so multifaceted! But I appreciate your contrast concern. If that is your most important issue then I understand completely. For me a lack of consistency on the screen is a much bigger worry, an uneven screen with specks etc. is terrible.

Here are some splotches on PW2:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128460.525.html

[Blossom]

Originally Posted by fearindex

Sure, but QC on PWs is a whole different can of worms compared to past e-ink issues, so multifaceted! But I appreciate your contrast concern. If that is your most important issue then I understand completely. For me a lack of consistency on the screen is a much bigger worry, an uneven screen with specks etc. is terrible.

Here are some splotches on PW2:

http://www.kboards.com/index.php/topic,128460.525.html

Oh dear! Poor guy posting in Kindle fandom land. I've seen so many pics like that with the PW1 just search here at MR and you will see many who have that problem last year. It does seem to be less though than last year where blobs were the biggest issue. Now we got pinholes taking its place and a new issue of sepia backgrounds

The blobs were so bad I was so worried about getting one but my PW1 which was from the third batch has no blobs it would be perfect if it didn't have two very tiny pinholes but it's perfect enough. I don't even see them unless I move my head back and forth real quick.

[shanghaichica]

I cancelled my PW 2 ordered due to the jaundiced appearance of virtually every picture of the 2 I've seen.