Astak Mentor eBook readers with WiFi and Touchscreen (read-only)

[Sonist]

This may be a silly question, but if Robert can enlighten me on why is nobody doing 8" screens?

iRex has the iLiad, but has effectively abandoned it, for 9.7" (at which size they'll likely get clobbered by the much cheaper offerings coming to market this year.)

But no other manufacturers seem interested in this size, which I think is most book-like of them all (and I might be the only one.)

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Brecklundin:

There were a number of us who kicked and screamed and fussed until Robertb acquired an REB1100 (or maybe 1150) and actually tried it (in the flesh, as it were)! The screen sucks, but the physical ergonomics are GREAT! Robertb's feedback was that after using it for a few hours he finally understood why we made such a fuss.
I really really REALLY hope he passed on just how important that kind of improved physical ergonomics is to the PTB's. I also hope that the PTB's turn out not to be Dilbert-style PHB's (Pointy Haired Bosses) -- that is, I hope they pay attention to this input! We'll see what happens with the next few devices...


Xenophon

THANKS for that info...I missed that part of the discussion. I have been in and out of the site for extended periods the past several months. I have to say having RobertB here really is a wonderful bit of access.

I for one like the design of the 1150 though I haven't held one in person. It's simple and straight forward. There is a lot to be said for such a design.

[emellaich]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

Brecklundin:
There were a number of us who kicked and screamed and fussed until Robertb acquired an REB1100 (or maybe 1150) and actually tried it (in the flesh, as it were)! The screen sucks, but the physical ergonomics are GREAT! Robertb's feedback was that after using it for a few hours he finally understood why we made such a fuss.
I really really REALLY hope he passed on just how important that kind of improved physical ergonomics is to the PTB's. I also hope that the PTB's turn out not to be Dilbert-style PHB's (Pointy Haired Bosses) -- that is, I hope they pay attention to this input! We'll see what happens with the next few devices...
Xenophon

... and just to give Xenophon and others their due credit, this was what I was referring to when I said: "I am struck by the comments earlier in this thread about the rocket book's form factor. "

I didn't want to go through 95 pages or so to find the specific quotes, but I did want to reiterate my support for the original line of discussion.

Michael

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by Sonist

This may be a silly question, but if Robert can enlighten me on why is nobody doing 8" screens?

iRex has the iLiad, but has effectively abandoned it, for 9.7" (at which size they'll likely get clobbered by the much cheaper offerings coming to market this year.)

But no other manufacturers seem interested in this size, which I think is most book-like of them all (and I might be the only one.)

Dear Sonist:

I did put am article up on this thread two weeks ago that said that there is some talk going around about an 8 inch device. The problem is that only Phillips makes an 8 inch screen and PVI (the world's largest panel manufacturer) does not.

This means that pricing on an 8 inch panel is higher than it is for the 10 inch. Everything is economy-of-scale. The more people buy a certain size, the lower they can charge for it. IF PVI came out with a 17.63 inch screen and enough device manufacturers placed orders... that 17.63 inch would be cheaper than a 10 inch. By the way... there is NO talk of a 17.63 screen.

So, iRex tried the 8 inch concept to reduce the cost but found it to be even more expensive, I surmize. The project appears to be dropped for now.

Both Jinke and Netronix are far along with the 9.7 inch anyway and PVI will be cranking out 9.7 Flexi at the end of March perhaps. So, with the advent of the 9.7 inch screen anyway...there is even less interest in the 8 inch (which initially was thought as a stop-gap measure as the 9.7 inch in glass cracked often).

Does this help to clarify?

Robert B

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by SaraD

Hi Robert B,

I just wanted to let you know that I am also still holding out for the next incarnation of an Astak e-book reader with the new controller and we'll see whatever other do-dads go with it. Any chance that a faster cpu has come along to go with the new controller? Mentor or EZ Reader is pretty much my only question left and that will hopefully be answered after all the specs are released in the next month or two. I started my first attempts at research March 2008 and found Mobile Read and this thread when it was at page 34 so my patience is almost exhausted. I'm tired of waiting!

For whatever it is worth, I'm with the folks who would rather have higher clarity and a button or three to push instead of the touchscreen. I also don't care much about wireless technology and hope there is a simpler version for a few dollars less that does its job really well. Thin is also a good thing as long as there is enough support to keep the screen supported. Yes, a thicker spot would be nice to hold onto at home, but when I chose an Eagle Creek Travel Bug backpack (http://www.eaglecreek.com/product/40480) for my new "purse" I made a cardboard dummy the general size of a 6" e-book reader to make sure it would fit before buying the bag. It will be a touch tight with the case, but not bad at all. Yes, it was a bet that the general size wouldn't change, but at this point will somewhat influence my choice.

By the way, thank you and Jinke again for including a case. The Foxit eSlick may claim to have a better price, but not if you really look at the "what's in the box" part.

Dear Sara D:

First off, thank you for confirming that it is NOT only the price BUT THE VALUE in the box that should be looked at by those buying an eBook Reader. I ahve always been, frankly, pretty amazed that Jinke included the Crush-Resistant Leather Case with the EZ Reader. When I first heard of the case I assumed it would be junk and clumsy to use. I was very surprised when I got the first one that they used a solid magnetic clasp and the EZ Reader is held in there extremely firmly and the quality is first rate.

ALL Netronix (the Mentor line) and all Jinke (EZ Reader line) models for the future WILL have the Epson 5X speed Controller. I have seen it on prototypes of the EZ Reader PRO and PLUS... and the speed is so fast that there is NO black screen. As fast as one image disappears the new image is up. Essentially instantaneous.

I still do not know all the specs and features for PRO and PLUS exactly... but the Epson Controller question was my first one and got two firm answers. WHY the blazes Amazon made the flaw in the Kindle V2 (leaving the Epson Controller out) I will never understand. Thank you, Amazon!!

Hope this helps to put aside your worry.

Robert B

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Dear Sara D:


I still do not know all the specs and features for PRO and PLUS exactly... but the Epson Controller question was my first one and got two firm answers. WHY the blazes Amazon made the flaw in the Kindle V2 (leaving the Epson Controller out) I will never understand. Thank you, Amazon!!

Hope this helps to put aside your worry.

Robert B

I believe the Amazon Kindle 2 does use the Epson controller. How else can they support the joystick selection which is a key Epson feature for partial redraws.

Dale

[brecklundin]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Dear Sonist:

I did put am article up on this thread two weeks ago that said that there is some talk going around about an 8 inch device. The problem is that only Phillips makes an 8 inch screen and PVI (the world's largest panel manufacturer) does not.

This means that pricing on an 8 inch panel is higher than it is for the 10 inch. Everything is economy-of-scale. The more people buy a certain size, the lower they can charge for it. IF PVI came out with a 17.63 inch screen and enough device manufacturers placed orders... that 17.63 inch would be cheaper than a 10 inch. By the way... there is NO talk of a 17.63 screen.

So, iRex tried the 8 inch concept to reduce the cost but found it to be even more expensive, I surmize. The project appears to be dropped for now.

Both Jinke and Netronix are far along with the 9.7 inch anyway and PVI will be cranking out 9.7 Flexi at the end of March perhaps. So, with the advent of the 9.7 inch screen anyway...there is even less interest in the 8 inch (which initially was thought as a stop-gap measure as the 9.7 inch in glass cracked often).

Does this help to clarify?

Robert B

Ultimately does it also not depend on the physical size of the sheets the displays are cut from? I do not know the production process of eink (or even LCD) displays today. But once was a time that LCD's were made in large sheets then cut/stamped out of that larger sheet. It was the reason we ended up with the display sizes we did...production and sheet size was geared toward maximum yields from the larger sheet. Some sizes lead to too much wasted material and the mfg still needs to charge for the entire sheet even if, say, there is a 25% fewer number of displays per sheet. So the actual total number of viable screens yielded from any single sheet master sheet is what dictates the cost.

Of course if the production process is different today (and we are talking 15ish years later so it very well could be) something seemingly as simple as an 8" display could cost the device maker 2x more per display because the viable screens/master sheet is far less. Plus also the layers containing the electronics are also engineered to allow for the desired stamped out size so a change, again, requires a revisit to the layout/design of the layer itself.

BTW, do you happen to know what the current (even an estimate is cool) but what is the current production ratio of bad displays/good displays for eink? That info might still be a fairly proprietary number but as a consumer knowing it would certainly explain, and make more palatable, the high cost of the displays right at this microsecond in time.

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by brecklundin

Ultimately does it also not depend on the physical size of the sheets the displays are cut from? I do not know the production process of eink (or even LCD) displays today. But once was a time that LCD's were made in large sheets then cut/stamped out of that larger sheet. It was the reason we ended up with the display sizes we did...production and sheet size was geared toward maximum yields from the larger sheet. Some sizes lead to too much wasted material and the mfg still needs to charge for the entire sheet even if, say, there is a 25% fewer number of displays per sheet. So the actual total number of viable screens yielded from any single sheet master sheet is what dictates the cost.

Of course if the production process is different today (and we are talking 15ish years later so it very well could be) something seemingly as simple as an 8" display could cost the device maker 2x more per display because the viable screens/master sheet is far less. Plus also the layers containing the electronics are also engineered to allow for the desired stamped out size so a change, again, requires a revisit to the layout/design of the layer itself.

BTW, do you happen to know what the current (even an estimate is cool) but what is the current production ratio of bad displays/good displays for eink? That info might still be a fairly proprietary number but as a consumer knowing it would certainly explain, and make more palatable, the high cost of the displays right at this microsecond in time.

Dear Brecklundin

Yes, to be sure, so much is determined by the "YIELD". Yield is the amount of screens per run that are good out of the total run. To be sure, yield goes up with time and trial. So... a 9.7inch screen right now is going thru the yield process at PVI. That is why just because someone like PVI knows how to build a Flexi screen in that size NOW... they may not start up production until the initial "yield" is high enough to warrant actual production. This can be a delay of a few weeks to a few months. Everyone needs to understand this "yield" term when they hear someone has a new technology. There is a lag time between having the technology and getting production going at a sufficient yield.

Likewise, if a final yield rate is 95% on 9.7 inch and 90% on an 8 inch... guess which one they will wish to build.

I do not know offhand what the yield rate is for E-Ink and would have to ask them for you. They may not wish to disclose that too.

Robert B

[Robertb]

[QUOTE=DaleDe;358470]I believe the Amazon Kindle 2 does use the Epson controller. How else can they support the joystick selection which is a key Epson feature for partial redraws.

Dear Dale:

I am going by the initial reviews on the V2 which said that the Black Screen was just too long and the device is slow. You know a lot better than me... but I cannot picture that their V2 and our EZ Reader PRO, if they both have the Epsin Controller, would behave so differently. It is VERY hard to find accurate specs on the V2... just reviews.

Robert B

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by emellaich

... and just to give Xenophon and others their due credit, this was what I was referring to when I said: "I am struck by the comments earlier in this thread about the rocket book's form factor. "

I didn't want to go through 95 pages or so to find the specific quotes, but I did want to reiterate my support for the original line of discussion.

Michael

Dear ALL:

I am still hearing you and yes, the support for thicker devices on MobileRead Forum was very clear on this issue. But, at CES, everybody that came to our booth (thousands) initially responded to how thin and light it is.

I am not arguing and still thinking. Now the Kindle and Sony have gone after the EZ Reader look... thin and light. If I go thick I would get killed.

The EZ Reader is just slightly under .4 inch thickness. It comes in the crush resistent leather case. It is designed so that you can open the case and fold back the top under the bottom while reading. This brings in to .75 inch thickness. If you hold it at the magnetic clasp on the case with the top folded back it is almost an inch and a half.

I am listening and do remember all the comments... but doesn't this work fairly good for those who like thickness and for those who prize thin too? I do not know, so I am asking. Plus, we are having new leather cases made as accessories where you can fold the top under the bottom for a total thickness of 2.8 inch. I am listening and I am trying to act... but CES showed THIN is what the buying public wants.

This is not so simple.

Robert B

[Robertb]

Originally Posted by peaceridge

Robertb,

If I wanted to get on the waiting list for the 6” EZ Reader with the new Epson Controller (not the touch screen or wifi), what would I do? Are you still thinking it will be available sometime between March and May 2009?

Thanks,

Lynn

Yes, I also prize that Epson Controller. It will be on all future Mentor and EZ Reader models. BUT, Jinke is in Alpha and Beta testing of the EZ Reader PRO and PLUS and the latest I heard is Late April or Early May. I am not sure of the latest on the Mentor line but will check. There is no waiting list as I do not have all the features yet on each model. We could load it up with things you would be astounded at (including SCRATCH (write directly on screen) and Text-To-Speech, and about 8 additional great features... call it an "Amazon Eatter"... but would you pay $549 (total conjecture). I do not think many would. So, we have to add with a sight on selling price. One of the huge discussions right now is the EZ Reader PLUS... it will have Touchscreen and Epson Controller... but should it have 3G. 3G on a device can add $80 and mean the end user has to buy a plan with AT&T. Wi-Fi adds maybe $14 and no fee. My aim is to bring the Plus in at $379 MSRP and the pro at $429 MAYBE!!! Will this be possible? I do not know. I have to weigh what I want on it against what the public will pay and still feel they got a great deal.

So, no waiting list until we know what it will have in the final production run. BUt, I thank you for asking.

Robert B

[EEguy]

Robertb,
When and where can I buy the 9.7 inch reader from you? Will it be able to render with with reasonable speed pdf's and djvu's files which consists of scanned book pages? Thanks.

[mobelby]

Originally Posted by Robertb

Y3G on a device can add $80 and mean the end user has to buy a plan with AT&T. Wi-Fi adds maybe $14 and no fee.
Robert B

RobertB, my vote for wifi and no 3G.

My reasoning is simple. I do wish to sync newsfeeds and turn it into a newspaper but I can do that quickly and free of charge by a quick sync on my own wifi before I leave the house. I will do this syncing occasionally because the newspaper feature is a nice add to the bookreader feature.

However the main purpose of the device is to read BOOKS, not to browse the internet. I have no intention ever to use an ereader to buy books. I have two laptops and a desktop and I feel a heck of a lot more comfortable doing transactions on those devices where I can properly browse several different online bookstores and decide which payment mechanism I want (eg paypal, CC etc) and I am not tied to bookstores that serve my device (ie Amazon and kindle).

Please sell us at least one device that has wifi and no 3G.

Thank you.

[Thales]

Hello Robert,
I am new to this thread (so I apologize if anything i say has already been said, I have read about 5 pages of 96 worth of posts).

I am eagerly awaiting the release of your companies eReaders. I thought I would let you know what features I am looking for (I am interested in the 9.7 inch screen):

1) hand written annotations via a stylus(I am a Physicist so my notes in the margins involve a lot of math symbols)
2) multi-level catagorizing of books
3) Open formats: epub, pdf, etc... (I understand you guys intend to implement this)
4) an open source operating system- linux for example
5) fast refresh rate and easy switching between books (I use my current reader for reference purposes and look up things across multiple books at once)
6) Dictionary look-up across multiple dictionaries- specifically technical dictionaries
7) Highlighting would be nice but underlining via handwritten annotations would be fine

Things that would be nice but are not even close to a deal breaker for me:
1) Wireless connectivity- nice, but I really don't care that much
2) led light

[Thales]

Oh, and on the WI-FI vs. 3G front- I would vote for WI-FI. I wouldn't even take G3 if it was offered (unless the service was free).