A copyright question

ficbot · 11-18-2009, 01:40 PM

I am looking to save some shelf space and by far the biggest space hogs are my old Norton Anthology books from university. Some of it is modern stuff you probably can't get on-line, but much of it---the first volume, certainly---is all PD stuff. I am thinking of making a digital version and am wondering if, should I do so, it's legal to share.

I don't care about the introductory notes, footnotes or anything like that, just the content, all of which would be stuff that's public domain. But I am wondering if I could get in trouble for copying the order---is such a thing even copyrightable? For example, let's say the book is 100 poems long, and the first poem is Such and Such, the second is So and So etc. I know the poems themselves cannot be copyrighted by the Norton people as they are PD, but is 'this set of poems arranged in that order' something they could have 'rights' on and I would get in trouble for copying and sharing?

Greg Anos · 11-18-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ficbot

I am looking to save some shelf space and by far the biggest space hogs are my old Norton Anthology books from university. Some of it is modern stuff you probably can't get on-line, but much of it---the first volume, certainly---is all PD stuff. I am thinking of making a digital version and am wondering if, should I do so, it's legal to share.

I don't care about the introductory notes, footnotes or anything like that, just the content, all of which would be stuff that's public domain. But I am wondering if I could get in trouble for copying the order---is such a thing even copyrightable? For example, let's say the book is 100 poems long, and the first poem is Such and Such, the second is So and So etc. I know the poems themselves cannot be copyrighted by the Norton people as they are PD, but is 'this set of poems arranged in that order' something they could have 'rights' on and I would get in trouble for copying and sharing?

Yes, the order can be copyrighted in the US. But that's shouldn't be a problem, order them differently...

Then put your own notes in, and copyright it yourself

Just release it in creative commons, and everybody's happy....

(Of course, I release my stuff in PD, but I'm a cranky old dinosaur....)

ficbot · 11-18-2009, 02:04 PM

Obviously, it would be a free release

I am not going to do all that work and just keep it for myself. I think it might be good to integrate some backgrounder stuff from Wikipedia, since that is Creative Commons licensed. I think it would be amazing to have a free e-alternative to the bulky, costly Norton Anthology. I sure could have used one when I was in university, but ebooks were not really out there at that time.

Greg Anos · 11-18-2009, 02:17 PM

Looking forward to it.....

rhadin · 11-18-2009, 03:57 PM

OPne thing to be aware of: If any of the prose in the anthology has been translated from its original language or is an edited version of the original, both the translation and the editing are copyrightable.

nboshart · 11-19-2009, 12:02 PM

Wow. That is an awesome idea. Open source literary anthologies would help students so much. Collaborative notes on stories? Essay topics? Why is there not this already? Is there?

HarryT · 11-19-2009, 12:13 PM

Yes; it's called "Project Gutenberg".

BooksForABuck · 11-19-2009, 12:26 PM

Remember, if there's translating or editing involved, the copyright applies to the new version. As a student, I remember reading from a different edition of Macbeth--and some of the lines and words varied in my version from those of other students.

Good luck--and yes, you might find it easier to create a meta-anthology linking to Gutenberg than going to all of the trouble of re-scanning and re-proofing paper content that has already been Gutenberged.

Rob Preece
BooksForABuck.com

Zorba · 11-19-2009, 12:55 PM

Write to the Norton company, permissions department, and ask them if it's legal to do what you want to do. It's a very nice group of people there.

Elfwreck · 11-19-2009, 01:12 PM

The order is not copyrightable; "mere lists" are not copyrightable. However, a thematic arrangement is copyrightable. (Sort of. I don't think there have have ever been successful copyright infringement cases based only on list order.)

But the easy fix to that worry is to rearrange the order into one of your own choosing.

Sparrow · 11-19-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The order is not copyrightable; "mere lists" are not copyrightable. However, a thematic arrangement is copyrightable. (Sort of. I don't think there have have ever been successful copyright infringement cases based only on list order.)

But the easy fix to that worry is to rearrange the order into one of your own choosing.

If an extra item was inserted would that mean it was no longer under copyright; even if the rest of the items retained their sequence?

(You could insert a haiku at the start

.)

DawnFalcon · 11-19-2009, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

The order is not copyrightable; "mere lists" are not copyrightable.

Careful. That might be true in some countries, but the UK for instance has a "sweat of the brow" doctrine which means they are copyrightable (and there's an explicit database right, seperate from copyright, which may also apply in some situations).

ficbot · 11-19-2009, 03:59 PM

I guess it's hard to say how 'artistic' the order is since the anthology is organized chronologically. So maybe there is a choice to include this Shakespeare sonnet over that one (and I might disagree with some of their choices and replace them with other ones anyway), but Shakespeare is always going to come before Yeats if one is going for a chronological presentation, right?

If I decide to add in the Wikipedia content, I might break this into several smaller ebooks by era. Then I could have the Wikipedia overview for that era, followed by my selections, and each ebook would be a reasonable size.

nboshart · 11-20-2009, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes; it's called "Project Gutenberg".

Yeah, that's like saying the public library is an anthology.

HarryT · 11-20-2009, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nboshart

Yeah, that's like saying the public library is an anthology.

Not really. What's in PG is entirely dependent upon your contributions. You said that you wanted a place where you could share things like essay notes with other people. If you want to contribute such things to PG, they will happily accept them. The way to make it what you want is to contribute the type of material that you'd like to see there.

11-18-2009, 01:40 PM	#1
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	A copyright question I am looking to save some shelf space and by far the biggest space hogs are my old Norton Anthology books from university. Some of it is modern stuff you probably can't get on-line, but much of it---the first volume, certainly---is all PD stuff. I am thinking of making a digital version and am wondering if, should I do so, it's legal to share. I don't care about the introductory notes, footnotes or anything like that, just the content, all of which would be stuff that's public domain. But I am wondering if I could get in trouble for copying the order---is such a thing even copyrightable? For example, let's say the book is 100 poems long, and the first poem is Such and Such, the second is So and So etc. I know the poems themselves cannot be copyrighted by the Norton people as they are PD, but is 'this set of poems arranged in that order' something they could have 'rights' on and I would get in trouble for copying and sharing?

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11-18-2009, 02:04 PM	#3
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	Obviously, it would be a free release I am not going to do all that work and just keep it for myself. I think it might be good to integrate some backgrounder stuff from Wikipedia, since that is Creative Commons licensed. I think it would be amazing to have a free e-alternative to the bulky, costly Norton Anthology. I sure could have used one when I was in university, but ebooks were not really out there at that time.

11-18-2009, 02:17 PM	#4
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,504 Karma: 37057604 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	Looking forward to it.....

11-18-2009, 03:57 PM	#5
rhadin Literacy = Understanding Posts: 4,833 Karma: 59674358 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The World of Books Device: Nook, Nook Tablet	OPne thing to be aware of: If any of the prose in the anthology has been translated from its original language or is an edited version of the original, both the translation and the editing are copyrightable.

11-19-2009, 12:02 PM	#6
nboshart Connoisseur Posts: 65 Karma: 456 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Toronto Device: Kobo	Wow. That is an awesome idea. Open source literary anthologies would help students so much. Collaborative notes on stories? Essay topics? Why is there not this already? Is there?

11-19-2009, 12:13 PM	#7
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Yes; it's called "Project Gutenberg".

11-19-2009, 12:26 PM	#8
BooksForABuck Zealot Posts: 123 Karma: 150001 Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Long Beach, CA Device: Color Nook, Kindle 2, Palm III, eBookWise, HP Jornada	Remember, if there's translating or editing involved, the copyright applies to the new version. As a student, I remember reading from a different edition of Macbeth--and some of the lines and words varied in my version from those of other students. Good luck--and yes, you might find it easier to create a meta-anthology linking to Gutenberg than going to all of the trouble of re-scanning and re-proofing paper content that has already been Gutenberged. Rob Preece BooksForABuck.com

11-19-2009, 12:55 PM	#9
Zorba 50 Benefits of Ebooks Posts: 8 Karma: 10 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ithaca, New York Device: iPad	Write to the Norton company, permissions department, and ask them if it's legal to do what you want to do. It's a very nice group of people there.

11-19-2009, 01:12 PM	#10
Elfwreck Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,187 Karma: 25133758 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: SF Bay Area, California, USA Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3 (Past: Kobo Mini, PEZ, PRS-505, Clié)	The order is not copyrightable; "mere lists" are not copyrightable. However, a thematic arrangement is copyrightable. (Sort of. I don't think there have have ever been successful copyright infringement cases based only on list order.) But the easy fix to that worry is to rearrange the order into one of your own choosing.

11-19-2009, 03:59 PM	#13
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	I guess it's hard to say how 'artistic' the order is since the anthology is organized chronologically. So maybe there is a choice to include this Shakespeare sonnet over that one (and I might disagree with some of their choices and replace them with other ones anyway), but Shakespeare is always going to come before Yeats if one is going for a chronological presentation, right? If I decide to add in the Wikipedia content, I might break this into several smaller ebooks by era. Then I could have the Wikipedia overview for that era, followed by my selections, and each ebook would be a reasonable size.

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