Seriously thoughtful The three mass shootings this month - are they related to the recession?

[Dr. Drib]

I was catching up on some news from my country (U.S.) and found out about the shooting yesterday in New York.

In doing some research, I found reports that some criminologists believe the increase in mass murders may be related to the recession in the United States.

Quoted from an article in the Irish Times:

"Some criminologists suggest the recent spate of shootings could be linked to the recession and the impact of job losses on personal finances and relationships."

What do you think?


Don

[lilac_jive]

I think so, yes. Almost every company is scaling back, so everyone's stressing out. So they're snapping. There were a couple examples of a dad who was laid off and killed his whole family recently.

[pshrynk]

There is a general trend association between recession and murders in general. I haven't seen any hard data that shows a rise in rampage murders with recession, but I've never really dug that far.

[Dr. Drib]

Originally Posted by pshrynk

There is a general trend association between recession and murders in general. I haven't seen any hard data that shows a rise in rampage murders with recession, but I've never really dug that far.

And during the Wall Street Crash of 1929, a number of people committed suicides in various creative ways, but was their prevalent at that time, in what I term, a Culture of Mass Murder?

It seems to me that something fundamental has changed in our society, and that a recession contributes to depression, suicieds, murder, etc. - but is it a main factor in what we see today as mass murders?


Don

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

And during the Wall Street Crash of 1929, a number of people committed suicides in various creative ways, but was their prevalent at that time, in what I term, a Culture of Mass Murder?

It seems to me that something fundamental has changed in our society, and that a recession contributes to depression, suicieds, murder, etc. - but is it a main factor in what we see today as mass murders?


Don

The suicide rate remains remarkably steady regardless of economic situation. The myth of people diving off buildings on Wall Street came more from the dark humor of the times. Suicides amongst Wall Street mavens gets highly publicized during bad times and generally ignored as much as any suicide is during good. If economic disaster led to suicides, there would be a huge number in the Madoff scandal that were showing up. Bernie himself would be a prime candidate. It just doesn't happen.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

"Some criminologists suggest the recent spate of shootings could be linked to the recession and the impact of job losses on personal finances and relationships."

Interesting. But then there are many people that claim the CIA assasinated JFK and that we have alien technology in Hander 87 (or whatever number it is) and also that the Moon landing was staged in a Hollywood sound stage.

I really take these things with a grain of salt. I know these things happen all the time, and some "news of the day" is always blamed.

The stress of the cold war. The floods. Video Games. Movies. Rock Music.

I really just don't know if it is true. I think if people have a propensity for this type of thing there are a number of triggers that could set it off. And it makes perfect sense that economic hardship is one such trigger.

BOb

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I was catching up on some news from my country (U.S.) and found out about the shooting yesterday in New York.

In doing some research, I found reports that some criminologists believe the increase in mass murders may be related to the recession in the United States.

Quoted from an article in the Irish Times:

"Some criminologists suggest the recent spate of shootings could be linked to the recession and the impact of job losses on personal finances and relationships."

What do you think?


Don

I think it's somewhat more likely to be related to the US's ludicrously lax laws on gun ownership. The murder rate in the US is 70x that of the UK, per head of population, and the overwhelming majority of those murders are carried out with guns. Gun crime happens in the UK, yes, but it's so rare that it's "headline news". In the US it seems to be so depressingly common that it's barely newsworthy.

The original justification for gun ownership in the US was in order to provide an "armed militia", in the days when the country had no standing army. What possible justification is there for it today?

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I think it's somewhat more likely to be related to the US's ludicrously lax laws on gun ownership. The murder rate in the US is 70x that of the UK, per head of population, and the overwhelming majority of those murders are carried out with guns.

Jut remember, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Can you not get a gun in the UK?

BOb

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Jut remember, if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.

Can you not get a gun in the UK?

BOb

Private ownership of handguns is virtually prohibited in the UK. .22 target pistols are permitted, but only people who require them for their occupation (eg vets) are permitted to own larger-calibre handguns. Shotguns are relatively easily obtainable, both for occupation needs (eg farmers) and for sporting purposes. Rifles can be obtained, but it's more trouble than it's worth - you have to keep them in a secure cabinet bolted to an outside wall, with ammunition stored in a separarely locked cabinet, and the police come randomly knocking at your door every few weeks to make sure that you're complying with all the laws. If you break them, they basically lock you up and throw away the key. Very few criminals carry guns when committing crimes because, again, if you are caught and convicted, the act of carrying a gun carries a mandatory 10 year jail term without parole.

[desertgrandma]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I was catching up on some news from my country (U.S.) and found out about the shooting yesterday in New York.

In doing some research, I found reports that some criminologists believe the increase in mass murders may be related to the recession in the United States.

Quoted from an article in the Irish Times:

"Some criminologists suggest the recent spate of shootings could be linked to the recession and the impact of job losses on personal finances and relationships."

What do you think?


Don

I think its a wonderful excuse/rationalization for people to do what they want, and for others to excuse their behavior.

There. Is. No. Excuse. Reason. For. This.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Very few criminals carry guns when committing crimes because, again, if you are caught and convicted, the act of carrying a gun carried a mandatory 10 year jail term without parole.

Wow... well the NRA is a very strong lobby here... and money talks when politicians are listening.

Yes, I recall when reading the Professor and the Madman how he described the violence with guns was virtually unheard of in England and how this American shooting someone was an extremely rare occurance.

Although, is killing someone with a knife or cross bow or arrow any less violent and tragic than using a gun?

BOb

[tylerdurden51]

no. i think the guy is just crazy.

if it was just the recession, i think he would have just killed himself

[pshrynk]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Wow... well the NRA is a very strong lobby here... and money talks when politicians are listening.

Yes, I recall when reading the Professor and the Madman how he described the violence with guns was virtually unheard of in England and how this American shooting someone was an extremely rare occurance.

Although, is killing someone with a knife or cross bow or arrow any less violent and tragic than using a gun?

BOb

No less tragic, just a lot less difficult. We sometimes forget that the lethality of guns is way higher than more primitive means. To kill someone with a knife takes a very skilled or lucky blow. Same with an arrow or crossbow bolt. Maybe slightly less lucky. But to kill with a bullet takes proximity and a gun.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pilotbob

Although, is killing someone with a knife or cross bow or arrow any less violent and tragic than using a gun?

BOb

Absolutely not, but remember that the majority of murders are "domestic" and carried out by people without any previous criminal record. If you have a gun in the house, it's at hand if you have a row with your husband/wife. If all you have at hand are kitchen knives, etc, you're far less likely to kill the other person.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Dr. Drib

I was catching up on some news from my country (U.S.) and found out about the shooting yesterday in New York.

In doing some research, I found reports that some criminologists believe the increase in mass murders may be related to the recession in the United States.

Quoted from an article in the Irish Times:

"Some criminologists suggest the recent spate of shootings could be linked to the recession and the impact of job losses on personal finances and relationships."

What do you think?


Don

I suppose it might be true, but then pretty much anything "might" be true.

I do believe, however, that this latest "rampage" doesn't appear to have much to do with the economy and everything to do with a mentally imbalanced man who thought people were making fun of him.

There are going to be people in any society who go around the bend. Some of them are going to be serial killers and some of them will be mass murderers. Several of the most infamous serial and mass killers committed their crimes without the use of a gun. Guns don't kill people, they just make it incredibly easy to do so.

When anyone runs around saying that this sort of thing doesn't happen in their society .... blah, blah, blah .... I just wonder how often it really happens, and the perps just plain get away with it. Anyone here ever seen or read "Citizen X"? Yep ..... serial killers are just a decadent Western phenomenon .... my ass. How many children did that guy kill? I know it was well into double digits. I don't think he shot any of them. There are also means other than guns to effect mass murder.

Gun control alone is no answer. I was shot once with a 22 caliber "target rifle" .... did a fair amount of damage to my left knee. If he had kept shooting, he might have killed me. So, I don't think knowing that only 22 caliber rifles are allowed in the UK would have given my mother much comfort if she'd had a dead child on her hands.

Even the background checks aren't enough. So what if a person passes a background check and has no psychiatric history or criminal history? That just means that when they kill 13 people, that was the first offense and the first sign that they were nuts.

Any sort of cultural stressor can result in an increase of criminal activity. It doesn't always happen, but it can. Personal stressors can also result in problems, in individuals. Family annihilators are particularly prone to personal stress. They can't stand the idea of being humiliated in front of their family, so they just remove the family and the problem is solved.

However, anyone who tries to lump all of this stuff into a neat little package for an article just hasn't done their homework.