sharing ebooks

daesdaemar · 02-03-2009, 04:41 PM

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. I considered The Lounge, but it states it is for non-reading topics.

I know there is a lot written (perhaps unwritten) about what can and can't be done with copyrighted and DRM'd ebooks.

It seems to me that it should be acceptable to loan such an ebook to another if there is an agreement that the book would be returned (deleted from the device) after reading. That would seem akin to borrowing and returning a paper book. I'm almost sure that it will be said that this is "not legal", but I would like to see a discussion and examination of the topic.

llasram · 02-03-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesdaemar

It seems to me that it should be acceptable to loan such an ebook to another if there is an agreement that the book would be returned (deleted from the device) after reading. That would seem akin to borrowing and returning a paper book. I'm almost sure that it will be said that this is "not legal", but I would like to see a discussion and examination of the topic.

I'm not sure how interesting this is really... It probably is illegal in most circumstances, but I'd hope most of us would find it morally acceptable, or at least would find it so if it weren't illegal.

Ned · 02-04-2009, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by llasram

It probably is illegal in most circumstances, but I'd hope most of us would find it morally acceptable, or at least would find it so if it weren't illegal.

Is the legality of something related to whether or not it is morally acceptable?
In the UK /EC for example, our idiots in government make such absurd laws that I for one have no moral problem in ignoring many of the silliest.

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daesdaemar

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. I considered The Lounge, but it states it is for non-reading topics.

I know there is a lot written (perhaps unwritten) about what can and can't be done with copyrighted and DRM'd ebooks.

It seems to me that it should be acceptable to loan such an ebook to another if there is an agreement that the book would be returned (deleted from the device) after reading. That would seem akin to borrowing and returning a paper book. I'm almost sure that it will be said that this is "not legal", but I would like to see a discussion and examination of the topic.

You can lend someone your reader with the book on it. You probably can't legally "lend" them the actual book, because that involves making a copy of it, and that's not permitted.

ErwinOtten · 02-04-2009, 04:51 AM

Hmmm, when you have 4 PID-slots in your e-book-store and you use 1 slot for the PID of your friend’s reader.......

I'm not quite sure what to make of that. In fact you are buying 2 books for the price of one........

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErwinOtten

Hmmm, when you have 4 PID-slots in your e-book-store and you use 1 slot for the PID of your friend’s reader.......

I'm not quite sure what to make of that. In fact you are buying 2 books for the price of one........

If you read the terms and conditions of many eBook stores, you'll see that only the original purchaser is permitted to read the book. Technically, you're breaching the terms of a site like FictionWise by letting even another family member read the book on your reader

.

Format C: · 02-04-2009, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you read the terms and conditions of many eBook stores, you'll see that only the original purchaser is permitted to read the book. Technically, you're breaching the terms of a site like FictionWise by letting even another family member read the book on your reader

.

What if that same term was written on the cover of a printed edition?

I suppose it'd stay on the shelf forever...

When I was at school, me and my friends bought together books and VHS movies and shared them without remorse.
When the five of us had read the book or watched the movie, the items went on sale.
I have read about 10 times the books I could afford according to publisher.

And believe it or not, I don't feel guilty for it.

In the digital world, I don't think I'm a bad guy if I "lend" my passwords in the same way.
Fictionwise's terms are unfair, but they don't know who's typing on my keyboard...
When they'll demand a webcam to identify me, I'll cancel my subscription.

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Format C:

When I was at school, me and my friends bought together books and VHS movies and shared them without remorse.
When the five of us had read the book or watched the movie, the items went on sale.
I have read about 10 times the books I could afford according to publisher.

And believe it or not, I don't feel guilty for it.

Whyever would you feel guilty about it? You were doing absolutely nothing wrong.

Quote:

In the digital world, I don't think I'm a bad guy if I "lend" my passwords in the same way.
Fictionwise's terms are unfair, but they don't know who's typing on my keyboard...
When they'll demand a webcam to identify me, I'll cancel my subscription.

<shrug>

That's entirely your decision. I'm certainly not going to "pass judgment" on you. I would ask a question, though: if you consider FictionWise's terms to be unfair, why do you buy from them? Why not do business with someone whose terms you DO consider to be fair?

Format C: · 02-04-2009, 06:03 AM

Just for fun, let's try a proposal:

We all make one single subscription to FW (or BoB, or any other one), with username and password given to every member of the forum.
We all together with that single account buy every single Mobipocket book in the catalog (yes, the entire library), encrypted with a generic, well known PID.

That way, we all have access to a lot of books, don't we?
And the bookstore have sold his entire catalog...

Isn't it a good deal for everyone?

Look at it:

The store sells about 20.000 books (one copy each, but it's still better than sell 1.000 copies of 3 books...).
The store still sells single copies to other customers (the "club" is a one time only, no late members are admitted).
Nobody will read ALL the books, just a few dozens of them.
New books are still sold individually: it's a one shot deal, and the account can be disabled to new purchases.
One year later, the shot can be repeated with the new editions of that year.
If we're 1.000, we pay for about 20 books each (which is the average in the western world), but we can read a lot more (and I bet someone will read less...).

We can also think to limited genre-related buyer clubs...
And if we're enough we can pay full price for each book, regardless to rebates and micropay or similar deals...
And if we're double than that, we can pay double price for the books...

In a distant future, that will be the only business model for digital content distribution...

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 06:19 AM

I really would be VERY wary about doing something like that. You could be laying yourself open to charges of criminal fraud and deception

.

Format C: · 02-04-2009, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's entirely your decision. I'm certainly not going to "pass judgment" on you. I would ask a question, though: if you consider FictionWise's terms to be unfair, why do you buy from them? Why not do business with someone whose terms you DO consider to be fair?

I do business with FW, because that unfairness is not entirely their fault.
The whole business model, based on a per-copy payment, is obsolete, and a single retailer can't do much about it.
Besides, I always buy books with discounts on them, and Italian resellers charge 13€ for a British paperback...

So it's a trade-off between giving away my right to own what I buy and having it at a good price.

Format C: · 02-04-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I really would be VERY wary about doing something like that. You could be laying yourself open to charges of criminal fraud and deception

.

If it's a regular contract between us and the store (or the publisher, or whoever...), I can't see any criminal offense in it.
I'm thinking about it done openly and legally.

Of course publishers, authors and retailers have to trust us, and we have to behave honestly.
I'm not sure about the former.

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Format C:

If it's a regular contract between us and the store (or the publisher, or whoever...), I can't see any criminal offense in it.
I'm thinking about it done openly and legally.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood - I thougt you meant that you were going to share your personal account details with everyone here. No, obviously if it were done openly that would be a completely different thing, but I really can't see FW going for it, can you? For one thing, in order for people to use the books (if you were thinking about secure books) the DRM would need to be removed, and that's really a legal "grey area", to say the least!

Format C: · 02-04-2009, 06:48 AM

What I'm saying is:

I go to the store, and I tell the manager: "I buy everything. But 1.000 people will be using it. Here's the list. And here's the money".
Now, if I the manager thinks about what he gets, he'll say: "Deal, but you won't have discounts nor loyalty points". If the manager thinks about what he may lose if somebody strips DRM and put a file in the P2P, he'll say: "go away, thief!"
In the second case, the manager is just ignoring the fact that 99% of those books are already in the darknet, and in P2P circuits...

HarryT · 02-04-2009, 06:50 AM

I'm not saying that I don't think that it's a good idea, just that I can't see any eBook store going for it

.

02-03-2009, 04:41 PM	#1
daesdaemar Addict Posts: 210 Karma: 4282 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Florida Device: Sony 505, Kindle 3, iPad 3	sharing ebooks Sorry if this is the wrong place to post. I considered The Lounge, but it states it is for non-reading topics. I know there is a lot written (perhaps unwritten) about what can and can't be done with copyrighted and DRM'd ebooks. It seems to me that it should be acceptable to loan such an ebook to another if there is an agreement that the book would be returned (deleted from the device) after reading. That would seem akin to borrowing and returning a paper book. I'm almost sure that it will be said that this is "not legal", but I would like to see a discussion and examination of the topic. Last edited by daesdaemar; 02-03-2009 at 04:48 PM.

02-04-2009, 06:03 AM	#9
Format C: Guru Posts: 753 Karma: 1496807 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The Third World Device: iLiad + PRS-505 + Kindle 3	Just for fun, let's try a proposal: We all make one single subscription to FW (or BoB, or any other one), with username and password given to every member of the forum. We all together with that single account buy every single Mobipocket book in the catalog (yes, the entire library), encrypted with a generic, well known PID. That way, we all have access to a lot of books, don't we? And the bookstore have sold his entire catalog... Isn't it a good deal for everyone? Look at it: The store sells about 20.000 books (one copy each, but it's still better than sell 1.000 copies of 3 books...). The store still sells single copies to other customers (the "club" is a one time only, no late members are admitted). Nobody will read ALL the books, just a few dozens of them. New books are still sold individually: it's a one shot deal, and the account can be disabled to new purchases. One year later, the shot can be repeated with the new editions of that year. If we're 1.000, we pay for about 20 books each (which is the average in the western world), but we can read a lot more (and I bet someone will read less...). We can also think to limited genre-related buyer clubs... And if we're enough we can pay full price for each book, regardless to rebates and micropay or similar deals... And if we're double than that, we can pay double price for the books... In a distant future, that will be the only business model for digital content distribution...

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02-04-2009, 04:51 AM	#5
ErwinOtten Addict Posts: 338 Karma: 444 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The Netherlands Device: Cybook G3	Hmmm, when you have 4 PID-slots in your e-book-store and you use 1 slot for the PID of your friend’s reader....... I'm not quite sure what to make of that. In fact you are buying 2 books for the price of one........

02-04-2009, 06:19 AM	#10
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I really would be VERY wary about doing something like that. You could be laying yourself open to charges of criminal fraud and deception .

02-04-2009, 06:48 AM	#14
Format C: Guru Posts: 753 Karma: 1496807 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The Third World Device: iLiad + PRS-505 + Kindle 3	What I'm saying is: I go to the store, and I tell the manager: "I buy everything. But 1.000 people will be using it. Here's the list. And here's the money". Now, if I the manager thinks about what he gets, he'll say: "Deal, but you won't have discounts nor loyalty points". If the manager thinks about what he may lose if somebody strips DRM and put a file in the P2P, he'll say: "go away, thief!" In the second case, the manager is just ignoring the fact that 99% of those books are already in the darknet, and in P2P circuits...

02-04-2009, 06:50 AM	#15
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	I'm not saying that I don't think that it's a good idea, just that I can't see any eBook store going for it .

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