US Election "Rules"

HarryT · 11-05-2008, 08:06 AM

A question about the way that US elections work:

I know that Mr. Obama is now the "President Elect", and that he actually becomes President "for real" some time next January. Right so far?

What would happen if something were to happen to Mr. Obama in the mean time? Would Mr. Biden automatically become President or would a new election be held?

What would happen if something happened to Mr. Biden, too, before the time of taking office? I know that there's a "chain of succession" for taking over the office of President, but what happens before they actually take office?

Thanks!

Greg Anos · 11-05-2008, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

A question about the way that US elections work:

I know that Mr. Obama is now the "President Elect", and that he actually becomes President "for real" some time next January. Right so far?

What would happen if something were to happen to Mr. Obama in the mean time? Would Mr. Biden automatically become President or would a new election be held?

What would happen if something happened to Mr. Biden, too, before the time of taking office? I know that there's a "chain of succession" for taking over the office of President, but what happens before they actually take office?

Thanks!

Harry, there is no answer to your question. Our constitution has no method for handling the situtation. Does this need to be addressed? Absolutely! Will it be addressed in our current political climate? Absolutely not! <Shrug> This is not a partisan issue, and I would support any constitutional change to fill the gap.

This land mine has been sitting in our government for 200+ years. Let's hope it doesn't go off now.

HarryT · 11-05-2008, 08:41 AM

Heavens! I just assumed that there was a "rule" for it which I wasn't aware of. Thanks - and obviously I sincerely hope that the need for such a thing DOESN'T arise.

The parallel issue doesn't arise in our political system, since our Prime Minister is simply the leader of the governing political party, and whoever leads that party is automatically PM.

rhadin · 11-05-2008, 08:49 AM

Should something happen to Obama, Biden would become president-elect. Should something happen to Biden as well, we are in political nightmare land.

Biden would become president-elect because of the way the electoral college votes work, and because there is a planned-for succession -- the reason for the vice presidency. Alas, there is nothing to guide the course of events should something happen to both men.

I would add that because it has never occurred in our history, even the certainty of Biden becoming president-elect isn't 100% certain, especially with the polarized Supreme Court being the final arbiter. However, I suspect that the certainty factor is 99.99999999999999 ad infinitum % for multiple reasons, mainly practical, just like it was certain to that extent that John McCain would not be denied the possibility of being elected and serving as president because he was born on an American military base in Panama rather than within the US proper.

Need also to mention that although Obama has been declared president-elect by the media, technically he is not yet president-elect. He becomes president-elect once the electoral college meets and casts its votes. Although many states require the electors to cast their ballots based on who they were elected to vote for, some do not and those electors can cast their ballots as they wish. We do not vote directly for a president; we vote for electors who are pledged to vote for the particular candidate.

daffy4u · 11-05-2008, 09:07 AM

One of the news sites I was reading yesterday answered this question. So far I haven't been able to find the article again but I remember the 12th Amendment of the Constitution covers it.

I'll keep looking.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 11-05-2008, 09:10 AM

I'm pretty sure that, if something happened to Obama at this point, Biden as his running mate would be given the President's job. However, if Biden couldn't do that, the job would possibly go to the next in line of succession-elect, which would be the new Speaker of the House of Representatives.

The Speaker of the House is elected by the members of the House, at the beginning of a new session (administration). That would mean the House, and not a public vote, would be selecting the next President, something that body has never done before, and would probably represent a s**tstorm in action.

If the House refused to take on that responsibility, we'd be writing new laws to figure out how to handle it, and all bets are off. (Edit: I say this before reading Daffy's comment, so maybe the 12th Amendment has got that covered.)

Patricia · 11-05-2008, 09:19 AM

Wikipedia on the 12th Amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth...s_Constitution

This implies that Mr Biden would become President.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 11-05-2008, 09:19 AM

Okay, the 12th Amendment basically covers the fact that the Electoral College will vote for President and Vice-President. It suggests that if the President-elect and VP-elect were not able to take office, whoever the E.C. votes for (and who is constitutionally eligible) would be President. If the E.C. does not vote a clear winner (ie, a tie), the House of Representatives votes for President. Similarly, if the E.C. does not vote in a VP (ie, another tie), the Senate votes in the V.P.

So, Obama... then Biden... then, literally anyone who is constitutionally eligible (and apparently whether they campaigned for the job or not) can be voted in by the E.C. or the House.

HarryT · 11-05-2008, 09:42 AM

Thanks for all the information!

Over · 11-05-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhadin

Need also to mention that although Obama has been declared president-elect by the media, technically he is not yet president-elect. He becomes president-elect once the electoral college meets and casts its votes. Although many states require the electors to cast their ballots based on who they were elected to vote for, some do not and those electors can cast their ballots as they wish. We do not vote directly for a president; we vote for electors who are pledged to vote for the particular candidate.

What?! I've heard something about this in a tv series episode (Boston Legal), but I didn't give it any credit.

What's the story? And what kind of democracy is that?!

radioflyertoo · 11-05-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Okay, the 12th Amendment basically covers the fact that the Electoral College will vote for President and Vice-President. It suggests that if the President-elect and VP-elect were not able to take office, whoever the E.C. votes for (and who is constitutionally eligible) would be President. If the E.C. does not vote a clear winner (ie, a tie), the House of Representatives votes for President. Similarly, if the E.C. does not vote in a VP (ie, another tie), the Senate votes in the V.P.

So, Obama... then Biden... then, literally anyone who is constitutionally eligible (and apparently whether they campaigned for the job or not) can be voted in by the E.C. or the House.

The XX admendment covers the rules of succession of the Pres. Elect dies before taking office. SO the VP elect would be the President elect if the Pres. elect dies before taking office. If they both die it's up to the House of rep.

HarryT · 11-05-2008, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Over

What?! I've heard something about this in a tv series episode (Boston Legal), but I didn't give it any credit.

What's the story? And what kind of democracy is that?!

The original reason for it was that, in the early days of the United States, the country was extremely large and sparsely populated, and, before the days of good communications, there was simply no practical method for all the people to vote directly for President. The only practical way to do it was for the people of each state to cast their votes locally, and then for a small group of people to physically travel to Washington to cast votes on behalf of the state.

Another reason sometimes cited for an electoral college system is that the electors are selected by the state, and they are supposed to be the "great and the good" of the state, and can therefore be relied on to act with greater "wisdom" than the "uneducated masses".

radioflyertoo · 11-05-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Over

What?! I've heard something about this in a tv series episode (Boston Legal), but I didn't give it any credit.

What's the story? And what kind of democracy is that?!

Actually the US is a representative republic not a democracy. (If we were actual democracy the people who could vote would vote on any and all legislation. - I know it's splitting hairs but ....)

I believe, but am not entirely sure, that the electorial college was put in place to protect people from their own folly. Many people back then were ignorant and illiterate and needed help with voting. Hence the elections were open to fraud (not sure much has changed on the fraud side) so electorial was used as a brake on that type of non-sense. The electors could at that time vote for whom ever they chose but typically didn't, as they could today in certain states which do not require conformity to the election results).

Orginially the electors in the electorial college would vote for Pres. and VP based on the popular vote for each canidate, since a you didn't vote for a duo (party). So under the orginial rules the Pres elect and VP elect could come from different parties (as you can guess this caused considerable conflict). So the constitution was changed to correct this.

HarryT · 11-05-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radioflyertoo

Orginially the electors in the electorial college would vote for Pres. and VP based on the popular vote for each canidate, since a you didn't vote for a duo (party). So under the orginial rules the Pres elect and VP elect could come from different parties (as you can guess this caused considerable conflict). So the constitution was changed to correct this.

The original rules were set in place before there was a "party" system - something so ridiculous simply didn't occur to the writers of the constitution.

radioflyertoo · 11-05-2008, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The original rules were set in place before there was a "party" system - something so ridiculous simply didn't occur to the writers of the constitution.

So true.

A link to the US constitution http://constitutionus.com/

11-05-2008, 08:06 AM	#1
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	US Election "Rules" A question about the way that US elections work: I know that Mr. Obama is now the "President Elect", and that he actually becomes President "for real" some time next January. Right so far? What would happen if something were to happen to Mr. Obama in the mean time? Would Mr. Biden automatically become President or would a new election be held? What would happen if something happened to Mr. Biden, too, before the time of taking office? I know that there's a "chain of succession" for taking over the office of President, but what happens before they actually take office? Thanks!

11-05-2008, 08:49 AM	#4
rhadin Literacy = Understanding Posts: 4,833 Karma: 59674358 Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: The World of Books Device: Nook, Nook Tablet	Should something happen to Obama, Biden would become president-elect. Should something happen to Biden as well, we are in political nightmare land. Biden would become president-elect because of the way the electoral college votes work, and because there is a planned-for succession -- the reason for the vice presidency. Alas, there is nothing to guide the course of events should something happen to both men. I would add that because it has never occurred in our history, even the certainty of Biden becoming president-elect isn't 100% certain, especially with the polarized Supreme Court being the final arbiter. However, I suspect that the certainty factor is 99.99999999999999 ad infinitum % for multiple reasons, mainly practical, just like it was certain to that extent that John McCain would not be denied the possibility of being elected and serving as president because he was born on an American military base in Panama rather than within the US proper. Need also to mention that although Obama has been declared president-elect by the media, technically he is not yet president-elect. He becomes president-elect once the electoral college meets and casts its votes. Although many states require the electors to cast their ballots based on who they were elected to vote for, some do not and those electors can cast their ballots as they wish. We do not vote directly for a president; we vote for electors who are pledged to vote for the particular candidate. Last edited by rhadin; 11-05-2008 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Add explanation about the electoral college

11-05-2008, 09:10 AM	#6
Steven Lyle Jordan Grand Sorcerer Posts: 8,478 Karma: 5171130 Join Date: Jan 2006 Device: none	I'm pretty sure that, if something happened to Obama at this point, Biden as his running mate would be given the President's job. However, if Biden couldn't do that, the job would possibly go to the next in line of succession-elect, which would be the new Speaker of the House of Representatives. The Speaker of the House is elected by the members of the House, at the beginning of a new session (administration). That would mean the House, and not a public vote, would be selecting the next President, something that body has never done before, and would probably represent a s*tstorm in action. If the House refused to take on that responsibility, we'd be writing new laws to figure out how to handle it, and all bets are off. (Edit: I say this before reading Daffy's comment, so maybe the 12th Amendment has got that covered.) Last edited by Steven Lyle Jordan; 11-05-2008 at 09:12 AM.*

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11-05-2008, 08:41 AM	#3
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Heavens! I just assumed that there was a "rule" for it which I wasn't aware of. Thanks - and obviously I sincerely hope that the need for such a thing DOESN'T arise. The parallel issue doesn't arise in our political system, since our Prime Minister is simply the leader of the governing political party, and whoever leads that party is automatically PM.

11-05-2008, 09:07 AM	#5
daffy4u I'm Super Kindle-icious Posts: 6,734 Karma: 2434103 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Long Drive, Calinadia Candafornia Device: KDXG, KT, Oasis	One of the news sites I was reading yesterday answered this question. So far I haven't been able to find the article again but I remember the 12th Amendment of the Constitution covers it. I'll keep looking.

11-05-2008, 09:19 AM	#7
Patricia Reader Posts: 11,504 Karma: 8720163 Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Wales, UK Device: Sony PRS-500, PRS-505, Asus EEEpc 4G	Wikipedia on the 12th Amendment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth...s_Constitution This implies that Mr Biden would become President.

11-05-2008, 09:42 AM	#9
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Thanks for all the information!

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