non-DRM copying discouragement method

[pdurrant]

DRM doesn't prevent mass copying of ebooks. Even if the DRM can't be broken, ebooks can be made in other ways, and I suspect that most unauthorised ebooks have been created by scanning and OCR of paper books, rather than by breaking DRM schemes.

In short, there's no technological fix that will stop people swapping ebooks on torrents, dodgy web sites, etc.

What DRM can do is prevent casual local copying of ebooks by non-technical readers. The owner can't give a DRMed eBook to a friend to read. Sometimes it can even prevent the owner reading the book. And it always causes hassle, sooner or later, to the person who actually paid for the ebook.

So I dislike DRM. I feel it doesn't prevent mass copying and is a too heavy handed way to prevent local copying, and doesn't even do that for technically minded readers.

I think a much better way to handle things would be to personalise commercial eBooks. So any book bought at an eBook store would have a first page of text that read:

"This copy of (book name) by (author name) was bought by (customer name), (customer email address) from (online bookstore name) on (date)"

In my mind this is more effective than DRM, and is also actually useful for the person buying the ebook, as it gives a record of the purchase that can't be lost.

Because of the personalization, mass copying is discouraged. You might give a copy to a friend or two, but no more than you might lend a physical book.

It requires a little bit more computer power at the bookstore end, but not impossibly much, I'd have thought.

What do others think?

[DaleDe]

This is called social DRM and has been covered in earlier forum topics. Many believe it is a good idea but no publisher has adopted it so far.

Dale

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

...and some others believe that it would do absolutely nothing to deter someone who wants a copy of an e-book. It would also serve as bragging rights for the person who wanted to release the e-book, much like "tagging" and other forms of vandalism. And remember, other people's names and accounts can be used, and e-mail addresses can be cancelled.

About the only way something like this might be a deterrent would be if it embedded permanent ID info into the book... but who's going to buy a book if you have to embed your social security number into it?

[bill_mchale]

Well, I am not sure the problem would be the discouragement of the embedded ID; after all, that is essentially the scheme eReader uses.

In short, there is no way to embed a buyer's id into the text that can't be stripped relatively easily. The only way to embed the id is to encrypt the book; but any encryption scheme where the attacker knows the plain text and the key is not going to stand up against a dedicated attack.

--
Bill

[gwynevans]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

This is called social DRM and has been covered in earlier forum topics. Many believe it is a good idea but no publisher has adopted it so far.

Actually, Manning do that sort of thing with their eBook PDFs, in that they have a footer saying "Licensed to ....", e.g. "Licensed to Gwyn Evans <gwyn.evans@gmail.com>" but no other security restrictions.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

...and some others believe that it would do absolutely nothing to deter someone who wants a copy of an e-book.

Yeah, but DRM doesn't either.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

DRM doesn't prevent mass copying of ebooks. Even if the DRM can't be broken, ebooks can be made in other ways, and I suspect that most unauthorised ebooks have been created by scanning and OCR of paper books, rather than by breaking DRM schemes.

You're probably right that most of them have been scanned, but several of the DRM schemes being used are pretty trivial to remove.

[JSWolf]

The idea of social tagging like that won't work. All that needs to be done is the book converted to some other format say HTML and the social tags removed and the book distributed in HTML or put back as it was. The only way to actually do it is to do it the war eReader does it. But then again, eReader has been cracked. So that's out.

The only social DRM that would work (IMHO) is more eBooks at reasonable prices without DRM. The more people would actually purchase eBooks instead of trying to steal them.

But then, now that I can remove DRM, I do purchase more then before I could.

[pdurrant]

The intention is not to prevent someone who's intent on distributing the books widely. That simply can't be done. DRM does not work to prevent this. And since there's no DRM to break, I don't see how bragging rights come into it.

The idea is just to remind the normal non-technical user that the book was bought by a particular person, and isn't something that should be freely passed around.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

...and some others believe that it would do absolutely nothing to deter someone who wants a copy of an e-book. It would also serve as bragging rights for the person who wanted to release the e-book, much like "tagging" and other forms of vandalism. And remember, other people's names and accounts can be used, and e-mail addresses can be cancelled.

About the only way something like this might be a deterrent would be if it embedded permanent ID info into the book... but who's going to buy a book if you have to embed your social security number into it?

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The only social DRM that would work (IMHO) is more eBooks at reasonable prices without DRM. The more people would actually purchase eBooks instead of trying to steal them.

I agree. The basic problem is that DRM in general dosn't work, it's not about whether this specific method of social DRM works.

But then, now that I can remove DRM, I do purchase more then before I could.

I'm similar. If I'm buying an ebook that is only available with DRM then I try to focus on the DRMs that are trivial to remove. That way I can always format shift when/how I need to. If it's only available with one of the other DRMs, then I tend to stay away.

DRM has a lot more to do with locking in formats and creating monopolies than it does about protecting the content anyway. It's always advertised as being used to protect the authors, but that's not what it's really used for. Just look at the kindle as an excellent example. Do you think Amazon created a special form of Mobipocket DRM for kindle ebooks because it was better at preventing copying, or did they do it so that they can offer kindle books at a discounted price... but only if you also purchase a kindle reader. In that case, it's pretty obvious that the DRM is designed to lock the ebook format to a specific brand of ebook reader. They're doing it to tie the content with the hardware in order to increase sales.

[pdurrant]

Yes, of course it can be removed. So, as you mention, can eReader and Mobipocket DRM.

But this 'Social DRM' won't be removed by the casual user, because they can't, and the techical user who can will see no reason to do so, since it doesn't prevent any legitimate use of the ebook.

Whereas I regularly removed DRM from ebooks I've bought because it's such a pain in everyday use. A note at the front of the book reminding me when and where I bought the book would actually be quite useful! Even more so if it was added to whatever metadata the ebook format supported.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The idea of social tagging like that won't work. All that needs to be done is the book converted to some other format say HTML and the social tags removed and the book distributed in HTML or put back as it was. The only way to actually do it is to do it the war eReader does it. But then again, eReader has been cracked. So that's out.

The only social DRM that would work (IMHO) is more eBooks at reasonable prices without DRM. The more people would actually purchase eBooks instead of trying to steal them.

But then, now that I can remove DRM, I do purchase more then before I could.

[pdurrant]

I don't think I'd be happy with that - a bit too intrusive on the reading experience to have it on every page.

Originally Posted by gwynevans

Actually, Manning do that sort of thing with their eBook PDFs, in that they have a footer saying "Licensed to ....", e.g. "Licensed to Gwyn Evans <gwyn.evans@gmail.com>" but no other security restrictions.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

You're probably right that most of them have been scanned, but several of the DRM schemes being used are pretty trivial to remove.

I find it interesting that LIT is considered easy to remove but requires a purchased copy in order to remove it since I believe the removal tool depends on you owning a legitimate copy. I believe this is an interesting side note.

Dale

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

But this 'Social DRM' won't be removed by the casual user, because they can't, and the techical user who can will see no reason to do so, since it doesn't prevent any legitimate use of the ebook.

The casual reader doesn't need to know how to remove it. They just need to know that there are sites where they can easily download a copy without paying. Non-technical people do that every day with music. There are plenty of folks that wouldn't feel comfortable running a cracking script that are fine grabbing a torrent. That's one of the things that makes DRM so futile when it comes to preventing piracy. I think the only way you're going to get those people to pay money rather than get it for free is to give them a reason to. Make it a reasonable price. Make it easy. DRM makes it way more complicated than it needs to be. Educate people that downloading stuff for free is stiffing the artists they love. I think a lot of folks just download mindlessly. They don't really think about what it means in the big picture.

Will books make it onto the dark nets? Sure. What would really help there is if we had a way of making anonymous payments. That would be useful for all sorts of things, not just this. Something like PayPal, but without sending on your personal information. Publishers could put a link in a book to the effect of, "Did you download this book without paying? Do the right thing by the author and pay here." Then you could send a donation to the account without worrying that they'd haul you into court RIAA-style.

[pilotbob]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I find it interesting that LIT is considered easy to remove but requires a purchased copy in order to remove it since I believe the removal tool depends on you owning a legitimate copy. I believe this is an interesting side note.

Dale

Yes... and no. I've had this discussion before here I think. None of the DRMs have actually been "cracked". People have just determined how to decrypt them if the key is known. So, if you have the key that was used to create the LIT file, then you can remove the DRM. This is pretty much true for any DRM scheme... since something that legitamatly reads the file needs to have the key to decrypt it.

I think "easy" means that the tools to do so are readily avialable. I can remove the encryption from any LIT if I have the keys for it... even if I didn't buy it.

BOb