HTML Table of Contents

fernando2112 · 01-18-2016, 10:57 AM

Hello,

I am new to epub design, and I have a doubt about HTML TOC.

Is it really necessary to generate an HTML TOC?
Because in Sigil I generate the TOC.ncx, and all devices that I have/had, like Kobo, Kindle, iPad, smatphones, display the TOC beautifully through their own built-in TOC option.

So I just want to know if an HTML TOC is optional, or there is a reason to have it in my epub.

Thanks

eschwartz · 01-18-2016, 11:23 AM

It is optional.

It is a page in the book, with hyperlinks -- as opposed to a semantic (builtin) ToC.
Some people like it, some people don't care.

fernando2112 · 01-18-2016, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

It is optional.

It is a page in the book, with hyperlinks -- as opposed to a semantic (builtin) ToC.
Some people like it, some people don't care.

Thank you very much for the clarification, eschwartz.
I never liked much the HTML TOC, just don't see the point. So it is good to know that it is optional.

Thanks again

Little.Egret · 01-18-2016, 05:10 PM

Amazon recommend it and give these reasons

https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/A...Guidelines.pdf

Table of Contents Guidelines 3.3

Amazon strongly recommends the use of an HTML TOC for all books that would benefit from this navigation feature. This applies to most books, with the exception of fixed-layout children's books (see section 4) and fixed-layout graphic novels/manga/comics (see section 5).

3.3.1 TOC Guideline #1: Logical TOC Is Recommended
Amazon strongly recommends that all Kindle books include both logical and HTML TOCs. The logical TOC is very important for a good reading experience, because it allows a reader to navigate between chapters easily. Users expect to see an HTML TOC when paging through a book from the beginning, while the logical TOC is an additional way for users to navigate books. The inclusion of a logical TOC is especially important for books that are longer than 20 pages.

fernando2112 · 01-18-2016, 07:17 PM

Thank you very much for this info Little.Egret!

Notjohn · 01-19-2016, 06:27 AM

And thanks from me as well. The "strongly recommends" is new. The TOC used to be "required" (though the requirement was never enforced AFAIK).

Toxaris · 01-19-2016, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

Amazon recommend it and give these reasons

https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/A...Guidelines.pdf

Table of Contents Guidelines 3.3

Amazon strongly recommends the use of an HTML TOC for all books that would benefit from this navigation feature. This applies to most books, with the exception of fixed-layout children's books (see section 4) and fixed-layout graphic novels/manga/comics (see section 5).

3.3.1 TOC Guideline #1: Logical TOC Is Recommended
Amazon strongly recommends that all Kindle books include both logical and HTML TOCs. The logical TOC is very important for a good reading experience, because it allows a reader to navigate between chapters easily. Users expect to see an HTML TOC when paging through a book from the beginning, while the logical TOC is an additional way for users to navigate books. The inclusion of a logical TOC is especially important for books that are longer than 20 pages.

So, they recommend it because they recommend it. There are no real reasons in it. There is already a TOC that can be used to navigate through the book, which can be used easily. A lot of users do not expect a HTML TOC while paging and find it very annoying if it is there....

fernando2112 · 01-19-2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxaris

So, they recommend it because they recommend it. There are no real reasons in it. There is already a TOC that can be used to navigate through the book, which can be used easily. A lot of users do not expect a HTML TOC while paging and find it very annoying if it is there....

Yeah, actually I never understood the reason why to use the HTML TOC, since the TOC from devices is way better. Seems redundant, at the least (and usually ugly).

Turtle91 · 01-19-2016, 10:27 AM

I would think it is there for those (hundred/thousands ??) who have older devices that don't support the ncx TOC...or don't support it very well. It's about inclusion and all that.

I don't get annoyed when I see an HTML TOC there, I just flip to the next page. Having said that, if it is not styled very well, then it's a good indicator that the rest of the book isn't styled very well either.

Toxaris · 01-19-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I would think it is there for those (hundred/thousands ??) who have older devices that don't support the ncx TOC...or don't support it very well. It's about inclusion and all that.

I don't get annoyed when I see an HTML TOC there, I just flip to the next page. Having said that, if it is not styled very well, then it's a good indicator that the rest of the book isn't styled very well either.

AFAK there are no ePUB readers that do not honor the ncx TOC. I do get annoyed, because often these TOC's go on for several pages and it has no use at all. If I want to go to another chapter, I first need to figure out where the HTML TOC is, go there and then finally to the chapter I want. Or, I just go to the ncx TOC in almost one go and select the chapter...

Also, often they are styled with no imagination. Just a dumb dump of hyperlinks.

DaleDe · 01-19-2016, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando2112

Yeah, actually I never understood the reason why to use the HTML TOC, since the TOC from devices is way better. Seems redundant, at the least (and usually ugly).

In EPub 3 version the HTML TOC is back and can also be directly used by the devices that support it as a separate TOC as well. MOBI traditionally has a link to the inline TOC and devices specifically support Mobipocket version of MOBI require it as they don't generally use or support the ncx file for that format.

Often older book will have an elaborate TOC that includes descriptions as well as chapters. In these case I try a preserve the inline TOC with linking chapter titles and embedded descriptions. I also find it useful for an outline particularly when it is multi-level.

If you encounter an Inline TOC and you don't like it just click on the first chapter and you will skip the rest no matter how many pages it takes.

Dale

JSWolf · 01-19-2016, 12:52 PM

I just delete the HTML ToC. It's not needed. It's just an annoyance.

Turtle91 · 01-19-2016, 08:10 PM

I also thought I read somewhere that it was a good thing to have at the front of your book so that when people previewed a sample they would have an idea of the overall structure. So not just an annoyance. My personal reading app has a great ncx toc feature so I don't use the html toc very much/at all, but it doesn't keep me awake at night if I read a book that had one.

Hitch · 01-19-2016, 11:22 PM

Boys, Boys, Boys....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I would think it is there for those (hundred/thousands ??) who have older devices that don't support the ncx TOC...or don't support it very well. It's about inclusion and all that.

Likely still hundreds of thousands, if one counts the DX. Indeed it is and indeed it does. As someone who still has some of those old devices, I'd like the choice, please.

Quote:

I don't get annoyed when I see an HTML TOC there, I just flip to the next page. Having said that, if it is not styled very well, then it's a good indicator that the rest of the book isn't styled very well either.

In fairness, there's a lot of books that have pretty simple TOC's. You can do a lot of this and that, but...if someone persists in simply having "Chapter 1, Chapter 2...Chapter 60," there's not much you can do about that. However, if you have a client that's taken advantage of the opportunity to create a brilliant marketing tool, in clever Chapter names/titles, well, that's another thing altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxaris

AFAK there are no ePUB readers that do not honor the ncx TOC. <snip>
Also, often they are styled with no imagination. Just a dumb dump of hyperlinks.

Tox, my sweetie, indeed, as DaleDe will mention in a moment, I fear you are to be disappointed. I know I was, when I saw that the NCX was being superseded. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for the NCX; I have liked the simple elegance of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleDe

In EPub 3 version the HTML TOC is back and can also be directly used by the devices that support it as a separate TOC as well. MOBI traditionally has a link to the inline TOC and devices specifically support Mobipocket version of MOBI require it as they don't generally use or support the ncx file for that format.

Correctamundo.

<snippety-doo-dah, snippety-day, my-oh-my...oops, back to the post...>

If you encounter an Inline TOC and you don't like it just click on the first chapter and you will skip the rest no matter how many pages it takes.

Dale[/QUOTE]

Or, for Kindles, use "Go To"> "Beginning." Simplicity itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I just delete the HTML ToC. It's not needed. It's just an annoyance.

Jon, my absolute fave curmudgeon! I knew you couldn't pass this up. It's nice to see that some things in life can be relied upon. The sun will come up; everything dies; and Wolfie will always tell you just how much he hates, hates, HATES the HTML TOC. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I also thought I read somewhere that it was a good thing to have at the front of your book so that when people previewed a sample they would have an idea of the overall structure. So not just an annoyance. My personal reading app has a great ncx toc feature so I don't use the html toc very much/at all, but it doesn't keep me awake at night if I read a book that had one.

As mentioned above, yup. It can be a great marketing tool; it can be used to show competent formatting; and some folks really like them. I'd think that the best option would be to simply give them the option--no??? If you really feel compelled to nuke the toc.html, put it at the back of the book, using a short TOC ("Start Reading") at the front. Best of all worlds.

Hitch

Toxaris · 01-20-2016, 03:50 AM

The DX is no ePUB reader, so why should it use the ncx? I know ePUB3 does not use the ncx anymore, and I feel it is a bad change...

I know some like the HTML TOC, I just don't. I do get annoyed by them, but not enough to remove it from the book first or not to read the book at all. Bad formatting will do that, but not the precense of a HTML TOC.

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01-18-2016, 10:57 AM	#1
fernando2112 Member Posts: 13 Karma: 10 Join Date: Oct 2014 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2015	HTML Table of Contents Hello, I am new to epub design, and I have a doubt about HTML TOC. Is it really necessary to generate an HTML TOC? Because in Sigil I generate the TOC.ncx, and all devices that I have/had, like Kobo, Kindle, iPad, smatphones, display the TOC beautifully through their own built-in TOC option. So I just want to know if an HTML TOC is optional, or there is a reason to have it in my epub. Thanks

01-18-2016, 11:23 AM	#2
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	It is optional. It is a page in the book, with hyperlinks -- as opposed to a semantic (builtin) ToC. Some people like it, some people don't care.

01-18-2016, 05:10 PM	#4
Little.Egret Wizard Posts: 3,168 Karma: 37800000 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Walton-on-Thames, Surrey, England, UK Device: Kindle Keyboard 3G, Kindle Fire 2, NOOK ST, Kindle HDX, Fire 7"	Amazon recommend it and give these reasons https://kindlegen.s3.amazonaws.com/A...Guidelines.pdf Table of Contents Guidelines 3.3 Amazon strongly recommends the use of an HTML TOC for all books that would benefit from this navigation feature. This applies to most books, with the exception of fixed-layout children's books (see section 4) and fixed-layout graphic novels/manga/comics (see section 5). 3.3.1 TOC Guideline #1: Logical TOC Is Recommended Amazon strongly recommends that all Kindle books include both logical and HTML TOCs. The logical TOC is very important for a good reading experience, because it allows a reader to navigate between chapters easily. Users expect to see an HTML TOC when paging through a book from the beginning, while the logical TOC is an additional way for users to navigate books. The inclusion of a logical TOC is especially important for books that are longer than 20 pages.

01-18-2016, 07:17 PM	#5
fernando2112 Member Posts: 13 Karma: 10 Join Date: Oct 2014 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2015	Thank you very much for this info Little.Egret!

01-19-2016, 06:27 AM	#6
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,519 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	And thanks from me as well. The "strongly recommends" is new. The TOC used to be "required" (though the requirement was never enforced AFAIK).

01-19-2016, 10:27 AM	#9
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,348 Karma: 20171571 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 15/11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	I would think it is there for those (hundred/thousands ??) who have older devices that don't support the ncx TOC...or don't support it very well. It's about inclusion and all that. I don't get annoyed when I see an HTML TOC there, I just flip to the next page. Having said that, if it is not styled very well, then it's a good indicator that the rest of the book isn't styled very well either.

01-19-2016, 12:52 PM	#12
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,745 Karma: 145864619 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	I just delete the HTML ToC. It's not needed. It's just an annoyance.

01-19-2016, 08:10 PM	#13
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,348 Karma: 20171571 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 15/11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	I also thought I read somewhere that it was a good thing to have at the front of your book so that when people previewed a sample they would have an idea of the overall structure. So not just an annoyance. My personal reading app has a great ncx toc feature so I don't use the html toc very much/at all, but it doesn't keep me awake at night if I read a book that had one.

01-20-2016, 03:50 AM	#15
Toxaris Wizard Posts: 4,520 Karma: 121692313 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Heemskerk, NL Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura	The DX is no ePUB reader, so why should it use the ncx? I know ePUB3 does not use the ncx anymore, and I feel it is a bad change... I know some like the HTML TOC, I just don't. I do get annoyed by them, but not enough to remove it from the book first or not to read the book at all. Bad formatting will do that, but not the precense of a HTML TOC.

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