What makes a story EPIC?

[Nancy Fulda]

So I've been thinking about the standard definition of epic fantasy -- a humongous battle between the forces of good and evil, with the fate of the world at stake -- and noticing that the genre seems to be evolving.

The standard definition works for classic stories like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars, but it doesn't seem to apply as well to, say, Brandon Sanderson or Peter Brett's work. Or, for that matter, to George R. R. Martin, and yet I'd definitely consider his works epic.

So I'm trying to pin down what creates the feel of an epic work. What gives it that sense of sweeping scope and resonating significance?

So far I've got:

• A battle against insurmountable odds
• A sense of impending doom ("Winter is coming")
• Leveling up -- the main character acquires and perfects new skills
• Leviathanic monsters
• Complex and unexpected worlds

What am I missing?

[HarryT]

The standard literary definition of an "epic" is a long work, with a hero as its protagonist, which narrates a series of achievements or events in an "elevated" style, ie not using normal everyday language.

The archetypal epic would be something like Homer's "Odyssey".

[fjtorres]

Complex and elaborate plots.

It is possible to tell great stories built around simple plots but epic stories tend to run on twisty plots.

Not required, but helpful: a large cast of players. Ensemble pieces with multiple agendas in play. GOT, DUNE, fit that mode. Shifting roles or alliances are very helpful in expanding the scope.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Complex and elaborate plots.

It is possible to tell great stories built around simple plots but epic stories tend to run on twisty plots.

Not required, but helpful: a large cast of players. Ensemble pieces with multiple agendas in play. GOT, DUNE, fit that mode. Shifting roles or alliances are very helpful in expanding the scope.

Does GoT have a hero, as a matter of interest? I've deliberately avoided either reading it or watching the TV series until it's complete (I know, I could have a long wait ).

[theducks]

Way bigger than it should have been

[GoSharks]

Originally Posted by theducks

Way bigger than it should have been

I gotta go with this!!!

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Does GoT have a hero, as a matter of interest? I've deliberately avoided either reading it or watching the TV series until it's complete (I know, I could have a long wait ).

GoT has several hero-type protagonists, as it is a parallel storylines narrative.
The "hero" of the overall story is up in the air as Martin has been steadily weeding out the protagonists. It may very well be that by the time he is done all the heroes are dead and the monsters win.

Odds are that Daenerys, the mother of Dragons, will be the last survivor but in this particular story it is dangerous to get too attached to any single character.

Edit: (Besides, little Arya Stark is evolving into a terror.)

[HarryT]

Thanks for the information!

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The standard literary definition of an "epic" is a long work, with a hero as its protagonist, which narrates a series of achievements or events in an "elevated" style, ie not using normal everyday language.

The archetypal epic would be something like Homer's "Odyssey".

Contemporary "epics" are a wee bit more accessible.
The term in modern usage tends to be attached to big sprawling narratives where the scope goes well beyond the norm for the genre.
In movies, something like the old Cecil B. DeMille "cast of thousands" three-plus hour movies or Eisenstein's ALEXANDER NEVSKY.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_(film)

In TV, some of the American miniseries of the 80's and early 90's like NORTH AND SOUTH and WAR AND REMEMBRANCE fit the model. Or, if you treat them as single narratives, BABYLON 5 and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA v2.

In SF; DUNE (vol 1), LENSMEN, THE AMBER CHRONICLES, and WORLD OF TIERS fit the mold, though by the practices of the day the latter two were broken into multiple volumes, much like LORD OF THE RINGS. THE MOTE IN GODS EYE and FOOTFALL are also arguably epics.

There is also an entire subgenre of fantasy that aspires to the epic label. Some with more success than others.

Originally Posted by HarryT

The standard literary definition of an "epic" is a long work, with a hero as its protagonist, which narrates a series of achievements or events in an "elevated" style, ie not using normal everyday language.

The archetypal epic would be something like Homer's "Odyssey".

That sounds pretty good to me. But I'd add that the hero's struggle goes beyond just his aims, but tends to encompass the fate of the world, or at least his country.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

GoT has several hero-type protagonists, as it is a parallel storylines narrative.
The "hero" of the overall story is up in the air as Martin has been steadily weeding out the protagonists. It may very well be that by the time he is done all the heroes are dead and the monsters win.

Odds are the Daenerys, the mother of Dragons will be the last survivor but in this particular story it is dangerous to get too attached to any single character.

Regarding Game of Thrones I must first say that I have never been interested in reading the book. I did watch the first few episodes of the television series though. I gave it up as it made The Lord of the Rings look like child's play in terms of difficulty in trying to follow all the characters and what was going on. As far as the end I figure it will be the "ice people" that will come out on top. Those ice people are cool.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Hamlet53

Regarding Game of Thrones I must first say that I have never been interested in reading the book. I did watch the first few episodes of the television series though. I gave it up as it made The Lord of the Rings look like child's play in terms of difficulty in trying to follow all the characters and what was going on. As far as the end I figure it will be the "ice people" that will come out on top. Those ice people are cool.

I might read the books...when and if the last one comes out.
But the TV show is its own creature and more so of late as they've started departing from the books in subtle and not so subtle ways.

What I found interesting was that for an epic *fantasy* there was very little overt magic in the first season. Which struck me as somewhat brave at the time. It also made the first appearance of the baby dragons more powerful.

As for the "ice people", there are two breeds. The walking dead are definitely colder than the merely cool living types.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Nancy Fulda

What am I missing?

The Enigmatic Adviser Who Withholds Information/Resources (That Could Have Considerably Shortened Both the Length and the Arduousness of the Good Guy's Ordeal).

Frodo; looking up at the giant eagle that plucked him to safety in the nick of time from the slopes of an erupting Mount Doom: "Hey Sam, remind me to kick Gandalf in the junk after I wake up back in Rivendell."

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The Enigmatic Adviser Who Withholds Information/Resources (That Could Have Considerably Shortened Both the Length and the Arduousness of the Good Guy's Ordeal).

Frodo; looking up at the giant eagle that plucked him to safety in the nick of time from the slopes of an erupting Mount Doom: "Hey Sam, remind me to kick Gandalf in the junk after I wake up back in Rivendell."

And the major mistake in LotR is that the eagles did not take our heroes all the way.

[Cinisajoy]

My vote for GoT hero is Arya Stark.

[AppleTard]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And the major mistake in LotR is that the eagles did not take our heroes all the way.

I do hope you're just joking (on the internet its hard to tell). Too many people actually buy this idiotic argument.