Author Sort When Author Has Three Names

[acgref]

I'm having difficulty getting the author sort to work on one book where the author has three names. The author is Christina Baker Kline. By default, Calibre made the author sort Kline, Christina Baker when it should obviously be Baker Kline, Christina. I changed the author sort name in the metadata to what wanted it to be (it turned red instead of green), but when I send it to my Kobo, it's still sorted under K instead of B. Does having the metadata in red prevent it from working properly? Is there a way to get it the way I want? Thanks!

[theducks]

Originally Posted by acgref

I'm having difficulty getting the author sort to work on one book where the author has three names. The author is Christina Baker Kline. By default, Calibre made the author sort Kline, Christina Baker when it should obviously be Baker Kline, Christina. I changed the author sort name in the metadata to what wanted it to be (it turned red instead of green), but when I send it to my Kobo, it's still sorted under K instead of B. Does having the metadata in red prevent it from working properly? Is there a way to get it the way I want? Thanks!

You can manage Author sorts in cases like this.
Right click on the author in the Tag Browser: Manage Authors

[acgref]

Ok, I'm confused. I went to the tag browser and manage authors, but I don't see what I'm supposed to do there. It's just two columns with the author and author sort. I can't seem to change anything.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by acgref

Ok, I'm confused. I went to the tag browser and manage authors, but I don't see what I'm supposed to do there. It's just two columns with the author and author sort. I can't seem to change anything.

Did you doubleclick on the old Author_sort valu?

BTW, I just noticed that there is also a right click: Edit sort for <author name>

[Adoby]

Well, it's difficult to have more than one last name...

You could use Christina Baker-Kline or Christina Baker_Kline.

You could perhaps also use a non-breaking space between the surnames. I haven't tested, not near my computer. It would look like a space but the two surnames will (perhaps) be treated like one big surname as when a hyphen is used.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-breaking_space

[acgref]

Originally Posted by theducks

Did you doubleclick on the old Author_sort valu?

I did that and changed it so that it appears as Baker Kline, Christina and in the metadata, it appears that way and it's green now instead of red. After I load it onto my Kobo though, it's still sorted under K, not B.

[Tarana]

when it should obviously be Baker Kline, Christina

Her name isn't actually hyphenated, so Calibre is correctly listing her as Kline, Christina Baker. Sorry, couldn't help but mention this. Lots of authors are using 3 names today to reduce confusion with authors of similar name now and in future. Does not necessarily mean that it is a hyphenate.

[unboggling]

Originally Posted by Tarana

Her name isn't actually hyphenated, so Calibre is correctly listing her as Kline, Christina Baker. Sorry, couldn't help but mention this. Lots of authors are using 3 names today to reduce confusion with authors of similar name now and in future. Does not necessarily mean that it is a hyphenate.

But author sort is still an issue with lots of names where the first part of the last name as used by the actual human owning it is "de la ", "de ", "van " etc. It is something to be aware of and managed in the author table as discussed above. Discussed elsewhere at other times, there is no automated way to correctly solve the issue in all cases in all language-conventions. When unsure I look up that particular author on a bibliographic site.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by acgref

I did that and changed it so that it appears as Baker Kline, Christina and in the metadata, it appears that way and it's green now instead of red. After I load it onto my Kobo though, it's still sorted under K, not B.

That is the way the sorting works on the Kobo device. Unless there is a comma in the authors name, it will use the last word in the name as the surname and sort by that. But, there is a comma in the name, it is assumed to be "LN, FN". You can send this to the device using a plugboard to set the author to author_sort.

If you want more details and some alternatives, there has been a bit of discussion on this in the Kobo forum. A search should find it.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Tarana

Her name isn't actually hyphenated, so Calibre is correctly listing her as Kline, Christina Baker. Sorry, couldn't help but mention this. Lots of authors are using 3 names today to reduce confusion with authors of similar name now and in future. Does not necessarily mean that it is a hyphenate.

Nah... they're just copying Mary Baker Eddy and Helena Bonham Carter (as she prefers being called)

Most people with Anglo-Irish non-hyphenated double-barrelled names seem to come from the US. I think its something to do with hedging their bets - not wanting to be seen as blue blooded patricians but wanting some of the cachet

The family name Bonham-Carter was promulgated by Royal licence in 1788. They are rolled gold aristocrats, most are in politics or banking or both.

BR

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by unboggling

But author sort is still an issue with lots of names where the first part of the last name as used by the actual human owning it is "de la ", "de ", "van " etc. It is something to be aware of and managed in the author table as discussed above. Discussed elsewhere at other times, there is no automated way to correctly solve the issue in all cases in all language-conventions. When unsure I look up that particular author on a bibliographic site.

It's perhaps worth noting that Dutch names of the form "van X", should be sorted under "X", not under "van". ie, the prefix is ignored for sorting purposes.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's perhaps worth noting that Dutch names of the form "van X", should be sorted under "X", not under "van". ie, the prefix is ignored for sorting purposes.

Interestingly, the author sort name algorithm tweak does not have a section for those.

So Mark L. Van Name should be in the "N's"?

is there a difference when the case of 'van' changes?
A. E. van Vogt <it still sorts in V , just moves down the list)
what about Vandyke or is it VanDyke', just no space? sort on the V or D?

[HarryT]

If Mr. Van Name was actually Dutch, then in the Dutch phone book his name would be under "N", not "V", yes .

[chaley]

Originally Posted by theducks

So Mark L. Van Name should be in the "N's"?

is there a difference when the case of 'van' changes?
A. E. van Vogt <it still sorts in V , just moves down the list)
what about Vandyke or is it VanDyke', just no space? sort on the V or D?

This is a very complicated subject.

Whether or not the "van" is part of the last name in general depends on whether or not the name is "noble". The same is true for "von", "de" "de la", "della", and a host of other prefixes.

In French (at least), case matters. In a noble name the prefix is lower case and can often be translated as "of" or "from". For example, Jean de Perdu is a noble name where "Perdu" is the ancestral seat of the family -- "John of Lost". In this case the name is sorted under "P". In a common name, the prefix is upper case and can often be translated as "the". For example, Jean De Perdu could be translated as "John The Lost", and is sorted under "D".

Making things even more complicated, some people with noble names don't want to use them and therefore use the other rule when alphabetizing their name. And of course, the inverse is true. If you want some fun, look at the controversy over whether the famous French general's name is spelled Charles de Gaulle or Charles De Gaulle.

Bottom line: without knowing where the name came from you cannot know whether the prefix goes with the name or not. IMO, the best way to resolve the issue is to look at how the person wrote it, especially if you can find an alphabetized list ordered by that person (e.g., a list of authors for a paper or a book). Second would be to look at how the name is indexed in a large library.

Add to the above the facts that the "noble" prefix is language dependent, and that in some cultures one writes names naturally as LN FN (e.g., Chinese names such as Sun Tzu or Li Mei-Hua), one finds no rule that covers all the cases. If I have any doubt, I check and fix the name manually.

[theducks]

chaley

Thanks for the detailed explanation on why calibre should not even attempt doing anything along these lines