Should Demonoid Stay Down?

andyafro · 11-30-2007, 09:01 AM

Before we start this discussion i must inform you that demonoid is an illegal file sharing site that has recently been closed down for the fourth time because the country they have there servers in has deemed them illegal and shut them down this is the 4th country to do so.

As soon as they closed you noticed this influx of people joining other sites looking for what they you used to get on demonoid. Moaning because there precious site has gone, posting messeges because they were spoilt for choice there and now they might have to actually pay for what they want.

The fact is closing demonoid has fractured the whole torrent community which is a good thing is most repects except for the person posting legal material such as music mixes, AND LEGAL TORRENTS ect.

My question is - is closing Demonoid a good first step towards stoping illegal material & copyright material being shared since its the main site for such things? and is this the end of the torrent?

JSWolf · 11-30-2007, 10:17 AM

Demonoid is gone for good. That is all I shall say about the matter.

Alexander Turcic · 11-30-2007, 10:36 AM

moved to the lounge as it doesn't really qualify as e-book news

HarryT · 12-03-2007, 06:31 AM

Anything that stops the criminal scum can only be good news.

mflood · 12-03-2007, 10:22 AM

"Criminal scum."

Heh. Have you ever driven over the speed limit, or rolled through a stopsign? You realize those things are probably more dangerous to society than torrenting a tv show or two, right?

I don't mean to advocate piracy and I don't intend to do so, but the holier than thou attitude doesn't really fly with me. Disagreeing with piracy is fine and good, but the outrage is a little unjustified, don't you think?

In response to the original poster, I personally hope that Demonoid will come back. Most people don't know because they've never looked, but there's a lot of great (and very legal) content on the big torrent sites. I think it's unfortunate that the sites are used for so much illegal activity, but the tool shouldn't be blamed for the crime. Torrent sites themselves (most of them, anyway) don't actively promote piracy or theft of any sort. They're just an open means of sharing what you have. Their fault is that they're good at what they do.

vivaldirules · 12-03-2007, 10:30 AM

Stealing the hard-earned property of others is both criminal and harmful. Rationalizing that it isn't is delusional. So I'm with Harry. Anything to stop criminal scum is okay by me.

HarryT · 12-03-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflood

Disagreeing with piracy is fine and good, but the outrage is a little unjustified, don't you think?

No. As an author and software developer who has seen my work blatantly pirated and offered for sale by criminals on eBay and other sources, I am outraged by people who think that they have some god-given "right" to steal and profit from people such as myself who spend YEARS working bloody hard to try to earn an honest living.

mflood · 12-03-2007, 10:43 AM

I don't see that rationalizing is a bad thing, as long as it makes sense. I think mine does, but you're certainly welcome to disagree with it.

I'll say a little more though.

1) I agree with you. Stealing the creations of others, either physically or digitally, is wrong. As a rule, I don't do it. I will say though, that it's not NEARLY as harmful as the entertainment industry would have you believe. For example, there have been lawsuits seeking thousands and thousands of dollars for EACH song downloaded by an individual. There's simply no way a company could lose that much money via the downloading of one song, unless the individual owned his own little chinese bootleg shop. Which is ridiculous to assume.

And added to that, there's the fact that there are a couple studies out there that have suggested (not proven, but suggested) that sharing may even help copywrite holders. The idea being that the fast and ubiquitous spread of their material gives them invaluable advertising, and many users who download something might like it so much that they buy "the real thing." Again I reiterate that I do NOT think this makes it ok to steal the work, but I will definitely continue with the position that it's not nearly as bad as the major industries want us to think it is.

2) (I number my points because I'm terrible at transition sentences :P) My issue with Harry's post was not that I disagreed with him about the actual legality or morality of stealing material protected by copywrite. Rather, it was with the fact that he seemed so outraged/upset by the whole thing. Yes it's wrong, but we've all broken the law (intentionally) from time to time, and compared to other common violations (such as traffic offenses, that can put the very lives of multiple people in danger) this seems fairly minor.

Thanks for the reply though. I'm new in town, and it's nice to have people to discuss with.

HarryT · 12-03-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflood

My issue with Harry's post was not that I disagreed with him about the actual legality or morality of stealing material protected by copywrite. Rather, it was with the fact that he seemed so outraged/upset by the whole thing. Yes it's wrong, but we've all broken the law (intentionally) from time to time, and compared to other common violations (such as traffic offenses, that can put the very lives of multiple people in danger) this seems fairly minor.

I'll tell you what: you spend the next 20 years writing a piece of software that you're trying to make a living from in a difficult marketplace. Then see it sold for 1/10th of its market price on eBay by some joker who's out to make a fast buck, or given away free on a BitTorrent site. Then tell me that it's a "minor matter" that "doesn't really affect anyone".

It DOES affect people personally and it DOES take money away directly from hard-working people who are struggling to make an honest living. These people are SCUM.

mflood · 12-03-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'll tell you what: you spend the next 20 years writing a piece of software that you're trying to make a living from in a difficult marketplace. Then see it sold for 1/10th of its market price on eBay by some joker who's out to make a fast buck. Then tell me that it's a "minor matter" that doesn't really affect anyone.

It DOES affect people personally and it DOES take money away directly from hard-working people who are struggling to make an honest living. These people are SCUM.

Firstly, I'm actually planning to do just that. Spend the next 20 years writing software, that is. So I imagine I'll get to experience this first hand, even if I haven't done it yet. I'll get back to ya if I change my mind. =P

That said, I think I'll bow out of this discussion. I have to leave in a little while anyway, and we're sort of going in circles. You guys are saying "it's bad!" and I'm responding with "yes, but it could be worse, and Demonoid isn't really to blame" and then we go back to "....but it's BAD!"

I agree. It's bad. But Demonoid is the means, not the crime. While I'm here, I might as well speak out and say I'm for email (despite its propogation of viruses that destroy millions in computer equipment every year), websites, (though many of them scam, steal credit card information, etc) and computer code in general, despite its usefulness in creating the aforementioned viruses.

Demonoid might be used primarily for illegal activity, but that's only because it's good at what it does: share information.

HarryT · 12-03-2007, 11:05 AM

Sorry - I think that we all see issues which have affected us personally as being a lot more "serious" than perhaps people who are looking at it from a more dispassionate perspective do. As I said, I have personally been affected by so-called "pirates" duplicating my software CDs and selling them for peanuts on eBay, so any discussion of the rights and wrongs of IPR theft does rather tend to "push my buttons".

jamesdmanley · 12-03-2007, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Anything that stops the criminal scum can only be good news.

scum indeed! these renegade 14 year olds looking for manga must be stopped!

hidari · 12-03-2007, 11:18 AM

I can see that there are some bad sides to Demonoid. I have seen the site but never used it. That said there are 20 or more bit torrent sites that are up and running. I agree, the illegal items should not be on the site. However, quite a few things are put on the site that are legal. Perhaps, Demonoid is only the is only the carrier but they would win more people over by policing it more thoroughly...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mflood

"Criminal scum."

Heh. Have you ever driven over the speed limit, or rolled through a stopsign? You realize those things are probably more dangerous to society than torrenting a tv show or two, right?

I don't mean to advocate piracy and I don't intend to do so, but the holier than thou attitude doesn't really fly with me. Disagreeing with piracy is fine and good, but the outrage is a little unjustified, don't you think?

In response to the original poster, I personally hope that Demonoid will come back. Most people don't know because they've never looked, but there's a lot of great (and very legal) content on the big torrent sites. I think it's unfortunate that the sites are used for so much illegal activity, but the tool shouldn't be blamed for the crime. Torrent sites themselves (most of them, anyway) don't actively promote piracy or theft of any sort. They're just an open means of sharing what you have. Their fault is that they're good at what they do.

vivaldirules · 12-03-2007, 11:26 AM

Feel free to rationalize all you want by judging for yourself what is more or less harmful to other people - whether you are knowledgeable enough to do so or not. But my recommendation is that people consider taking the high road and simply avoid the potential harm altogether. It doesn't cost much and keeps everyone out of trouble.

igorsk · 12-03-2007, 11:27 AM

I write software for money.
One piece of software I do (not alone, naturally) costs tens of thousands of dollars. There is some copy protection but it's pretty weak and can be removed by any half-experienced cracker. I've never seen it on torrent sites since it's not something usable by a general user and is not really useful without support.
Another piece is a $15 shareware program. There are cracks readily available but I don't worry about them much. The price is low enough for an impulse buy that most people don't bother wading through all the stuff out there. Also, if the program is warezed it means it's popular. Someone might download an old cracked version then see that the new one is available and just buy it. The sales are pretty good BTW.
Anyway, I agree with mflood: there are much worse things than copyright infrigement (which, incidentally, is not a criminal offence yet in most countries). I'd say, regard it as free publicity: the more your stuff downloaded and passed around, the more people know about it. Many of them would buy your stuff if they needed it and knew about it, and proper PR costs money. Eric Flint described the situation with books pretty nicely in one of his articles, and a lot of his reasoning applies to software:
http://baens-universe.com/articles/salvos7

11-30-2007, 09:01 AM	#1
andyafro Connoisseur Posts: 98 Karma: 140 Join Date: Jun 2007 Device: sony reader prs-500	Should Demonoid Stay Down? Before we start this discussion i must inform you that demonoid is an illegal file sharing site that has recently been closed down for the fourth time because the country they have there servers in has deemed them illegal and shut them down this is the 4th country to do so. As soon as they closed you noticed this influx of people joining other sites looking for what they you used to get on demonoid. Moaning because there precious site has gone, posting messeges because they were spoilt for choice there and now they might have to actually pay for what they want. The fact is closing demonoid has fractured the whole torrent community which is a good thing is most repects except for the person posting legal material such as music mixes, AND LEGAL TORRENTS ect. My question is - is closing Demonoid a good first step towards stoping illegal material & copyright material being shared since its the main site for such things? and is this the end of the torrent?

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11-30-2007, 10:17 AM	#2
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,936 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Demonoid is gone for good. That is all I shall say about the matter.

11-30-2007, 10:36 AM	#3
Alexander Turcic Fully Converged Posts: 18,171 Karma: 14021202 Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Switzerland Device: Too many to count here.	moved to the lounge as it doesn't really qualify as e-book news

12-03-2007, 06:31 AM	#4
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Anything that stops the criminal scum can only be good news.

12-03-2007, 10:22 AM	#5
mflood Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 14 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: Sony PRS-505	"Criminal scum." Heh. Have you ever driven over the speed limit, or rolled through a stopsign? You realize those things are probably more dangerous to society than torrenting a tv show or two, right? I don't mean to advocate piracy and I don't intend to do so, but the holier than thou attitude doesn't really fly with me. Disagreeing with piracy is fine and good, but the outrage is a little unjustified, don't you think? In response to the original poster, I personally hope that Demonoid will come back. Most people don't know because they've never looked, but there's a lot of great (and very legal) content on the big torrent sites. I think it's unfortunate that the sites are used for so much illegal activity, but the tool shouldn't be blamed for the crime. Torrent sites themselves (most of them, anyway) don't actively promote piracy or theft of any sort. They're just an open means of sharing what you have. Their fault is that they're good at what they do.

12-03-2007, 10:30 AM	#6
vivaldirules When's Doughnut Day? Posts: 10,059 Karma: 13675475 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Houston, TX, US Device: Sony PRS-505, iPad	Stealing the hard-earned property of others is both criminal and harmful. Rationalizing that it isn't is delusional. So I'm with Harry. Anything to stop criminal scum is okay by me.

12-03-2007, 10:43 AM	#8
mflood Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 14 Join Date: Nov 2007 Device: Sony PRS-505	I don't see that rationalizing is a bad thing, as long as it makes sense. I think mine does, but you're certainly welcome to disagree with it. I'll say a little more though. 1) I agree with you. Stealing the creations of others, either physically or digitally, is wrong. As a rule, I don't do it. I will say though, that it's not NEARLY as harmful as the entertainment industry would have you believe. For example, there have been lawsuits seeking thousands and thousands of dollars for EACH song downloaded by an individual. There's simply no way a company could lose that much money via the downloading of one song, unless the individual owned his own little chinese bootleg shop. Which is ridiculous to assume. And added to that, there's the fact that there are a couple studies out there that have suggested (not proven, but suggested) that sharing may even help copywrite holders. The idea being that the fast and ubiquitous spread of their material gives them invaluable advertising, and many users who download something might like it so much that they buy "the real thing." Again I reiterate that I do NOT think this makes it ok to steal the work, but I will definitely continue with the position that it's not nearly as bad as the major industries want us to think it is. 2) (I number my points because I'm terrible at transition sentences :P) My issue with Harry's post was not that I disagreed with him about the actual legality or morality of stealing material protected by copywrite. Rather, it was with the fact that he seemed so outraged/upset by the whole thing. Yes it's wrong, but we've all broken the law (intentionally) from time to time, and compared to other common violations (such as traffic offenses, that can put the very lives of multiple people in danger) this seems fairly minor. Thanks for the reply though. I'm new in town, and it's nice to have people to discuss with.

12-03-2007, 11:05 AM	#11
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383043 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Sorry - I think that we all see issues which have affected us personally as being a lot more "serious" than perhaps people who are looking at it from a more dispassionate perspective do. As I said, I have personally been affected by so-called "pirates" duplicating my software CDs and selling them for peanuts on eBay, so any discussion of the rights and wrongs of IPR theft does rather tend to "push my buttons".

12-03-2007, 11:26 AM	#14
vivaldirules When's Doughnut Day? Posts: 10,059 Karma: 13675475 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Houston, TX, US Device: Sony PRS-505, iPad	Feel free to rationalize all you want by judging for yourself what is more or less harmful to other people - whether you are knowledgeable enough to do so or not. But my recommendation is that people consider taking the high road and simply avoid the potential harm altogether. It doesn't cost much and keeps everyone out of trouble.

12-03-2007, 11:27 AM	#15
igorsk Wizard Posts: 3,442 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belgium Device: PRS-500/505/700, Kindle, Cybook Gen3, Words Gear	I write software for money. One piece of software I do (not alone, naturally) costs tens of thousands of dollars. There is some copy protection but it's pretty weak and can be removed by any half-experienced cracker. I've never seen it on torrent sites since it's not something usable by a general user and is not really useful without support. Another piece is a $15 shareware program. There are cracks readily available but I don't worry about them much. The price is low enough for an impulse buy that most people don't bother wading through all the stuff out there. Also, if the program is warezed it means it's popular. Someone might download an old cracked version then see that the new one is available and just buy it. The sales are pretty good BTW. Anyway, I agree with mflood: there are much worse things than copyright infrigement (which, incidentally, is not a criminal offence yet in most countries). I'd say, regard it as free publicity: the more your stuff downloaded and passed around, the more people know about it. Many of them would buy your stuff if they needed it and knew about it, and proper PR costs money. Eric Flint described the situation with books pretty nicely in one of his articles, and a lot of his reasoning applies to software: http://baens-universe.com/articles/salvos7

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