What we're up against - re: iPad

So this thread showed up on my Canadian mac forum and I can't decide if I'm amused, bewildered or just generally confused.

Thread title: Any software out there than can annotate PDFs with a tablet (ie writing, not text)
OP's query:

Just considering whether I should get a tablet and use my MBP or grab an iPad 2 this summer for note taking at school.

I'd use type notes but I have a ton of math based courses that would take FAR too long typing out the formulas to look proper.

Most of my courses have half filled print out notes but I'd prefer just being able to write on the pdfs and save myself the time and paper.

I answered early on in the thread with the problems of either set up. True, I didn't mention the edge by name. Canadian thing I guess. Thought I'd wait and see whether anyone asked about other devices. (Since the OP didn't ask which device but rather between two options, I thought it might be presumptuous to mention different devices.)

But, then a couple of more posters showed up claiming that the iPad was great for pdf annotation.

Are they delusional? Am I just iPad-challenged? Do they just not know any better?

At any rate, there's a (mis?)conception out there that the iPad is a great pdf annotator. By people who use it. I don't want to dis someone's personal experience; if they like it, good for them.

Just having trouble processing it all.

Link to thread, in case anyone wants to read it.

I know some extremely technical people who have this mindset. It's very frustrating; they love the iPad because it "just works".

Then there's another guy I was talking to yesterday -- a very smart and Internet savvy guy -- who was surprised to find that the iPad has no USB ports after he bought it. People are messed up.

Originally Posted by sarah11918

At any rate, there's a (mis?)conception out there that the iPad is a great pdf annotator.

I will agree with this assessment. One of my fellow group members bought an iPad for this reason, and after he saw what my eDGe can do, he admitted that getting an iPad for PDF annotation was a HUGE mistake.

I think part of the problem is that the people who are saying that the ipad is a great PDF annotator don't actually do muhc annotationof PDFs (I can't imagine using an ipad to grade papers or mark up ebooks with marginalia). And because these people can't see past their ibubble long enough to try other devices, they don't actually have a true point of comparison.

I own both an iPad and eDGe. Hands down I use the eDGe more than the iPad mainly due to annotation. I received the iPad as a Christmas present and though its fun for games and amusing apps. I use the eDGe more for my serious work for school and personal needs. With the introduction of the Amazon App store and Ermines, the eDGe is even better. Bottomline, I don't leave the house without my eDGE, the iPad is more of a toy (that I do leave at home).

I travel a lot and always take my eDGe. This past week I have been at the Business of Publishing conference in New York. Throughout the sessions, I have been taking handwritten notes on the eDGe while all around me the ipad hordes use their note taking apps. Not One of them actually used the ipad to annotate with. Interestingly, they also have a tiny portion of the screen (about 1/4) in which to type. I used the eDge to capture the session outlnes and then added my handwritten notes directly to the pages. In fact, most used the ipad to type a few words in between reading e-mails. I guess they could theoretically add text to pdf documents, if available. Unfortunately, none were available untill after the conference.

Originally Posted by Adiposius Maximus

I know some extremely technical people who have this mindset. It's very frustrating; they love the iPad because it "just works".

Then there's another guy I was talking to yesterday -- a very smart and Internet savvy guy -- who was surprised to find that the iPad has no USB ports after he bought it. People are messed up.

One of my coworkers was mystified about how I could be so hot to buy an EE rather than an iPad, saying, "The Edge looks interesting, but it doesn't make phone calls."

I guess what floored me most was that a couple of people were actually using the thing for annotation and recommended it. I just can't stand the notetaking experience on the iPad. After two versions of DIY styli (3 if you count the wet Q tip I started with!), I can honestly say that the iPad is fun if you're looking for a challenge and to see just how much less you can make the experience suck. But you can't pay me to want to write on that thing.

I am glad to hear (read) all these opinions about the pdf capabilities of the eDGe. I have been loudly mentioning it on the MobileRead forums every time I see someone asking which ereader/tablet is best for pdf annotation. I have no real hands-on experience myself, so happy to know I am leading no-one astray.

Hi guys -

I do not currently own either an eEdge or iPad, but am looking for something to use as I parse the tomes of literature that are relevant to my dissertation project as I attempt to complete my PhD. The eEdge is certainly high on my list, but I have a few questions with respect to the eEdge / iPad "controversy."

First, my understanding is that annotations can only be exported in pdf format as images - and as a result, the pdf loses its searchability/etc. This would be a serious limitation for me, as I would like to use a tablet of some sort to annotate pdfs, but store and organize them on my desktop (in conjunction with the Personal Brain software), and would therefore want to retain all the original information in the pdf file, in addition to my subsequent annotations... In contrast, my understanding of the pdf annotators on the iPad are that at least some of them are able to export the annotations to the pdf in a format that is readable by Adobe / etc, and so does not result in loss of functionality. Are there any plans in the works to make the annotated pdfs compatible with Adobe or other pdf readers?

Second, from the videos I have seen on YouTube of the eEdge, it seems that there is a significant delay in annotation between application of the stylus and what appears on the screen... I have not attempted to use an annotator on the iPad yet, but wonder if the delay is comparable between the two?

Third, again from the videos on YouTube, the handwritten annotations were all very large - how sensitive is the eEdge screen? How small can you write using a stylus?

Fourth, can you be more specific about the limitations of the iPad as a pdf annotator? There seem to be a number of sophisticated apps out there for pdf annotation using the iPad, especially when combined with higher-end styli (e.g. the Wacom Bamboo stylus.)

Thank you very much!

It would good to hear from someone with IPAD and edge. I only have the edge.

It is true that if you annotate a pdf on the eink side the annotations are not stores in the pdf as you may expect. You can export them as image. However, for the LCD side there are several really good programs that can make annotations that are compatible with adobe pdf (e.g., repligo, ezpdf reader). Also since the screen on the LCD is resistive you can write small enough to be useful. THe only drawback is that the LCD has no palm rejection. I have found annotaing pdfs on the LCD perfectly useful and if you use dropbox you get automatic sync.

Regarding the journal there is a small delay when you write. But I think it is perfectly useful. Also thanks to lutz we can now convert our annotations into onenote ink which make the journal extremely useful.

By the way you can write pretty small and use a pointed stylus which you can't have with capacitive screens.

The way I see it there are 2 main limitations with the IPAD (or any other capacity screen tablet) for your purposes: lack of palm rejection and lack of precision (meaning that you need a tick stylus). I know that there are some apps that try to compensate with some software based palm rejection and zoom type writing but you should probably try them and see how useful they really are.

Originally Posted by niemba

Hi guys -

I do not currently own either an eEdge or iPad, but am looking for something to use as I parse the tomes of literature that are relevant to my dissertation project as I attempt to complete my PhD. The eEdge is certainly high on my list, but I have a few questions with respect to the eEdge / iPad "controversy."

First, my understanding is that annotations can only be exported in pdf format as images - and as a result, the pdf loses its searchability/etc. This would be a serious limitation for me, as I would like to use a tablet of some sort to annotate pdfs, but store and organize them on my desktop (in conjunction with the Personal Brain software), and would therefore want to retain all the original information in the pdf file, in addition to my subsequent annotations... In contrast, my understanding of the pdf annotators on the iPad are that at least some of them are able to export the annotations to the pdf in a format that is readable by Adobe / etc, and so does not result in loss of functionality. Are there any plans in the works to make the annotated pdfs compatible with Adobe or other pdf readers?

Second, from the videos I have seen on YouTube of the eEdge, it seems that there is a significant delay in annotation between application of the stylus and what appears on the screen... I have not attempted to use an annotator on the iPad yet, but wonder if the delay is comparable between the two?

Third, again from the videos on YouTube, the handwritten annotations were all very large - how sensitive is the eEdge screen? How small can you write using a stylus?

Fourth, can you be more specific about the limitations of the iPad as a pdf annotator? There seem to be a number of sophisticated apps out there for pdf annotation using the iPad, especially when combined with higher-end styli (e.g. the Wacom Bamboo stylus.)

Thank you very much!

Writing on the ipad feels kind of like stabbing at food with a fork.

I've now made 3 completely different DIY styli for the iPad and while they're OK for hubby, I'm too used to tablet PCs, Wacom tablets etc. and I can't get over the size of the tip. We have a stylus on order from a start up who is taking a different approach to the stylus: making something more like a whiteboard marker. That's a great analogy, I think. So the tip won't be fine, but the barrel is going to be pretty big so it will feel finer in comparison to those very think stick styli with a tip that's the same width as the barrel. So except for needing a lot less arm power because you're not actually writing on a huge board, think about the difference in writing your notes with a whiteboard marker (with the ability to select a thinner line through the software) vs. writing using a pen. So, you can still get a finer line, even with a larger nib, but you still can't actually see the intersection of stylus and screen very well, which is one thing that makes writing with the iPad more disconcerting: your vision affects how you perceive the experience. That's my take on the physical experience between the two.

The other thing about the capacitive styli is that even the highest rated ones (which isn't necessarily saying much) seem to wear out within about 6 months, according to reviews. So you will probably go through at least 2 or 3 to find one you like well enough, and then you might need a couple of new ones each year, especially if you're predicting heavy usage.

Palm recognition is improving, but only in apps that are attempting to do so. Some still don't have palm recognition at all. The app you'll want to use depends on your overall organization system and how you need to use those files.

I will say that zooming in, writing, and zooming back out again is as sleek as you'd expect it to be on an Apple product. So depending on your needs, you can sort of get around the precision by simply zooming in, writing largely, then zooming out so that what you've written is actually normally sized.

But as someone who knows the options, I just can't get around to liking the feeling of writing on the iPad. Many people who don't know any better seem happy with it, especially if there's an app that happens to fit into your normal workflow or offer the right combination of features for exactly how you intend to use your notes/annotations/files. So I can't rule it out for the average person, but for people used to tablet PCs or Wacom tablets, it will probably feel kind of crude.

Another thing to consider is the 2 screens. I find it useful for technical documents to have 2 different pages open at the same time. (for checking references, equations, etc).

Does Ipad has common space? Like in android you can open the same pdf from different programs. It seems from my experience with the iphone that each program has its own space that can't be accessed by other programs. This is certainly annoying.

Anyways if you are not interested in 2 screens and having eink then you should also consider the HTC flyer rather than the ipad

Originally Posted by niemba

Hi guys -

I do not currently own either an eEdge or iPad, but am looking for something to use as I parse the tomes of literature that are relevant to my dissertation project as I attempt to complete my PhD. The eEdge is certainly high on my list, but I have a few questions with respect to the eEdge / iPad "controversy."

First, my understanding is that annotations can only be exported in pdf format as images - and as a result, the pdf loses its searchability/etc. This would be a serious limitation for me, as I would like to use a tablet of some sort to annotate pdfs, but store and organize them on my desktop (in conjunction with the Personal Brain software), and would therefore want to retain all the original information in the pdf file, in addition to my subsequent annotations... In contrast, my understanding of the pdf annotators on the iPad are that at least some of them are able to export the annotations to the pdf in a format that is readable by Adobe / etc, and so does not result in loss of functionality. Are there any plans in the works to make the annotated pdfs compatible with Adobe or other pdf readers?

Second, from the videos I have seen on YouTube of the eEdge, it seems that there is a significant delay in annotation between application of the stylus and what appears on the screen... I have not attempted to use an annotator on the iPad yet, but wonder if the delay is comparable between the two?

Third, again from the videos on YouTube, the handwritten annotations were all very large - how sensitive is the eEdge screen? How small can you write using a stylus?

Fourth, can you be more specific about the limitations of the iPad as a pdf annotator? There seem to be a number of sophisticated apps out there for pdf annotation using the iPad, especially when combined with higher-end styli (e.g. the Wacom Bamboo stylus.)

Thank you very much!

1)This is not a problem. You save the pdf from the Edge as an image, and email it or transfer it to your computer. Then, when you open the document within Adobe, you can convert it back to text using the OCR recognition function. It maintains your annotations, but you will have searchable text. Obviously you can't do this with just Adobe Reader and will need full Acrobat. Or some equivalent program that can do the OCR conversion. I do it all the time (also a PhD student).

2)The videos on YouTube reflect the product running the previous OS (Dingo) or even earlier. Froyo/Ermine has significantly sped up response time, particularly on the eink side. The delay between movement and appearance is literally split-second.

3)I don't know what counts as small or large for you, in terms of annotation and handwriting. You can't write teeny-tiny, but my handwriting on screen is pretty equivalent to what it is on paper. But I'm not sure why this matters so much: pages can be any size you want, and contain big or little margins, and have as much or as little content as you want on them. Scrolling through screens is free...

4)I can't speak to this.