Request for help from Sony user

AlexBell · 04-12-2011, 12:43 AM

I feel like a lion in a den of Daniels as I venture into this forum, so please bear with me.

I am preparing a complex text book which has a lot of quotes, some of them nested, and many footnotes.

I have prepared an ePub version which I think looks good, but when I try to convert it to mobi with calibre the result looks awful. There is no indentation for the first level quotes, and the nested quotes have a wider than designed left indent and no indent at all on the right.

I have styled the footnote numbers to be small and to only rise to the top margin of the text in the ePub version. But in the mobi version the footnotes are full size and are superscripts, which means that they intrude into the line space above and force a wider line space.

Also, I have styled some blocks of text in the front matter with wider than usual margins, but in the mobi version the text sits over to the left rather than being centered.

I know that the XHTML and stylesheet validate to W3C standards, and that the ePub validates with ePubCheck.

Two questions:
- Is it possible to design a mobi ebook which has indented and nested quotes, and in which the footnote numbers are not superscripts, and in which the HTML validates?
- If so, how does one do that? I really don't think I'm going to get a good conversion through calibre.

Regards, Alex

ProfCrash · 04-12-2011, 08:07 AM

I have no clue but hopefully someone else would.

I didn't want you to think you were being ignored.

Manichean · 04-12-2011, 09:13 AM

You might have better luck asking in the Mobipocket subforum.

AlexBell · 04-13-2011, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manichean

You might have better luck asking in the Mobipocket subforum.

I did, but the moderator moved my post here.

Regards, Alex

neilmarr · 04-13-2011, 03:36 AM

You dropped Tony Szmuk a line about this, Alex? I think you have his addres. If not, just email me and I'll send it on to you. Good luck. Neil

AlexBell · 04-13-2011, 07:11 AM

Thanks, Neil. I've sent you a private message.

Regards, Alex

AlexBell · 04-13-2011, 07:15 AM

Apologies to all - I've just noticed that this thread is now in the mobi forum. I started it in the Kindle forum, and it was moved to the calibre forum, and moved again to the mobi forum.

Regards, Alex

DiapDealer · 04-13-2011, 07:41 AM

I think the main problem is that: If you have a complicated, highly stylized ebook, there is just no easy way to maintain a single html source that will produce an epub and a mobi that are identical... regardless of the conversion software. This is not an issue with the conversion software, but rather, an issue of the vast differences between the epub and mobi formats. Those differences become more glaring the more complicated your layout becomes.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there comes point, when it becomes easier (and less frustrating) to maintain two separate sources. That point is different for everyone.

ATDrake · 04-13-2011, 12:07 PM

I can tell you straight up that short of moving your quotes into tables, you will never get them to indent on the right-hand side. Mobi just doesn't do right-hand margins.

Depending on what you're using to indent, you can probably fix the left-hand side, but you'll have to explicitly set the indent for both levels.

You will basically have to tweak your XHTML & CSS by hand to more-or-less match up with what's capable for the Mobi format, which is basically a glorified HTML 3.2. The old Mobipocket Developer Center documentation will probably be useful, along with the Amazon Kindle Developer Guidelines (less useful).

Frankly, I advise you to lower your standards to a simple functional display. Anything else is just asking for frustration when dealing with the Mobi format's limitations. (And KindleGen's bugginess, but that's a different matter.)

Also, don't use multiple or descendant selectors in your CSS if converting via KindleGen. These are just two of the things which Do Not Work.

Hope this helps.

AlexBell · 04-13-2011, 08:28 PM

Thanks, ATDrake and DiapDealer. That certainly does help.

The author of the text-book doesn't know much about ebooks, and had to be coaxed to accept the idea that ebooks are not dead tree books and follow different conventions. He wants the indents and his layout as they are in the pdfand the print versions.

I think I'm going to tell him that I can't produce a mobi version which will match his book, and suggest that he tells his Kindle using students to buy the pdf version. I'm just not prepared to jump through the hoops to do a version in valid XHTML 1.1 and another version in invalid HTML 3.2.

Regards, Alex

DiapDealer · 04-13-2011, 10:28 PM

I'm not sure what the obsession is with W3C validated XHTML, here. They're ebooks. They're not going to be served up to a browser by a webserver. Nothing wrong with making sure it passes ePubCheck's or FlightCrew's requirements, but W3C really has nothing to do with it. I certainly strive for W3C validated xhtml within my web apps, but ebooks are a different beast.

But I understand not wanting to jump through hoops to create a mobi that probably won't meet a client's expectations anyway.

AlexBell · 04-13-2011, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm not sure what the obsession is with W3C validated XHTML, here. They're ebooks. They're not going to be served up to a browser by a webserver.

Let's agree to disagree. I certainly don't claim to be an expert, but so far as I know the international specifications for ePub require valid XHTML.

And yes, I'm mildly obsessional. But I think that if all the world was as obsessional as me it would be a far happier place to live in.

Regards, Alex

Jellby · 04-14-2011, 04:22 AM

AlexBell is right, the ePUB standard requires that the XHTML is valid. Whether it is validated with W3C, epubcheck or FlightCrew should not matter, since all three should be doing the same work (in what regards the XHTML validity). Passing all validators is good, because there might be some errors that are only catched by one or other of them.

04-12-2011, 12:43 AM	#1
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	Request for help from Sony user I feel like a lion in a den of Daniels as I venture into this forum, so please bear with me. I am preparing a complex text book which has a lot of quotes, some of them nested, and many footnotes. I have prepared an ePub version which I think looks good, but when I try to convert it to mobi with calibre the result looks awful. There is no indentation for the first level quotes, and the nested quotes have a wider than designed left indent and no indent at all on the right. I have styled the footnote numbers to be small and to only rise to the top margin of the text in the ePub version. But in the mobi version the footnotes are full size and are superscripts, which means that they intrude into the line space above and force a wider line space. Also, I have styled some blocks of text in the front matter with wider than usual margins, but in the mobi version the text sits over to the left rather than being centered. I know that the XHTML and stylesheet validate to W3C standards, and that the ePub validates with ePubCheck. Two questions: - Is it possible to design a mobi ebook which has indented and nested quotes, and in which the footnote numbers are not superscripts, and in which the HTML validates? - If so, how does one do that? I really don't think I'm going to get a good conversion through calibre. Regards, Alex

04-13-2011, 08:28 PM	#10
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	Thanks, ATDrake and DiapDealer. That certainly does help. The author of the text-book doesn't know much about ebooks, and had to be coaxed to accept the idea that ebooks are not dead tree books and follow different conventions. He wants the indents and his layout as they are in the pdfand the print versions. I think I'm going to tell him that I can't produce a mobi version which will match his book, and suggest that he tells his Kindle using students to buy the pdf version. I'm just not prepared to jump through the hoops to do a version in valid XHTML 1.1 and another version in invalid HTML 3.2. Regards, Alex Last edited by AlexBell; 04-13-2011 at 08:33 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
PRS-600 To Sony Feature Request, Last # Books Read.	dzcowart	Sony Reader	10	05-28-2010 04:07 AM
Please request this book at Amazon/Sony	daffy4u	Reading Recommendations	96	05-18-2009 08:58 PM
Soon to be new user request	Flub	Sony Reader	19	08-28-2008 02:31 AM
Fresh user request	benn600	Sony Reader	4	05-16-2007 06:35 AM

04-12-2011, 08:07 AM	#2
ProfCrash Tea Enthusiast Posts: 8,554 Karma: 75384937 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Somewhere in the USA Device: Kindle1, Kindle DX Graphite, K3 3G, IPad 3, PW2	I have no clue but hopefully someone else would. I didn't want you to think you were being ignored.

04-12-2011, 09:13 AM	#3
Manichean Wizard Posts: 3,130 Karma: 91256 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Germany Device: Cybook Gen3	You might have better luck asking in the Mobipocket subforum.

04-13-2011, 03:36 AM	#5
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	You dropped Tony Szmuk a line about this, Alex? I think you have his addres. If not, just email me and I'll send it on to you. Good luck. Neil

04-13-2011, 07:11 AM	#6
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	Thanks, Neil. I've sent you a private message. Regards, Alex

04-13-2011, 07:15 AM	#7
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	Apologies to all - I've just noticed that this thread is now in the mobi forum. I started it in the Kindle forum, and it was moved to the calibre forum, and moved again to the mobi forum. Regards, Alex

04-13-2011, 07:41 AM	#8
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,569 Karma: 204127028 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I think the main problem is that: If you have a complicated, highly stylized ebook, there is just no easy way to maintain a single html source that will produce an epub and a mobi that are identical... regardless of the conversion software. This is not an issue with the conversion software, but rather, an issue of the vast differences between the epub and mobi formats. Those differences become more glaring the more complicated your layout becomes. I'm not saying it's impossible, but there comes point, when it becomes easier (and less frustrating) to maintain two separate sources. That point is different for everyone.

04-13-2011, 12:07 PM	#9
ATDrake Wizzard Posts: 11,517 Karma: 33048258 Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Roundworld Device: Kindle 2 International, Sony PRS-T1, BlackBerry PlayBook, Acer Iconia	I can tell you straight up that short of moving your quotes into tables, you will never get them to indent on the right-hand side. Mobi just doesn't do right-hand margins. Depending on what you're using to indent, you can probably fix the left-hand side, but you'll have to explicitly set the indent for both levels. You will basically have to tweak your XHTML & CSS by hand to more-or-less match up with what's capable for the Mobi format, which is basically a glorified HTML 3.2. The old Mobipocket Developer Center documentation will probably be useful, along with the Amazon Kindle Developer Guidelines (less useful). Frankly, I advise you to lower your standards to a simple functional display. Anything else is just asking for frustration when dealing with the Mobi format's limitations. (And KindleGen's bugginess, but that's a different matter.) Also, don't use multiple or descendant selectors in your CSS if converting via KindleGen. These are just two of the things which Do Not Work. Hope this helps.

04-13-2011, 10:28 PM	#11
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,569 Karma: 204127028 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I'm not sure what the obsession is with W3C validated XHTML, here. They're ebooks. They're not going to be served up to a browser by a webserver. Nothing wrong with making sure it passes ePubCheck's or FlightCrew's requirements, but W3C really has nothing to do with it. I certainly strive for W3C validated xhtml within my web apps, but ebooks are a different beast. But I understand not wanting to jump through hoops to create a mobi that probably won't meet a client's expectations anyway.

04-14-2011, 04:22 AM	#13
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,549 Karma: 19500001 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	AlexBell is right, the ePUB standard requires that the XHTML is valid. Whether it is validated with W3C, epubcheck or FlightCrew should not matter, since all three should be doing the same work (in what regards the XHTML validity). Passing all validators is good, because there might be some errors that are only catched by one or other of them.

Advert

Advert