My solution to Connect

Nogg · 08-06-2007, 06:06 PM

I hope I'm not breaking any rules by saying this, but I'm hoping that this may eventually reach eyes that will make it worthwhile.

After back and forth emails and phone calls, I'm pretty disappointed in the support and the organization of the Connect store. Books have gone missing from their site despite their assurances that the chances of that are very slim. Trying to get them back, or indeed even to find proof of their past existence seems to be impossible.

I love my Reader. I want to use it for every book I read. I want to pay legitimately for the media I obtain to support the creators. I want that media to be available in the most convenient form for me.

Ripping the CD's I buy to mp3 for my own personal use falls under "fair use", which I firmly believe in. I definitely don't share the songs out, nor do I even allow my friends to "borrow" the CD's.

Books are a slightly different matter, as the conversion process is much more difficult. I'm even willing to accept DRM on my purchased ebooks, while with music I only buy from non-DRM sources, or else I go without.

Thus, my solution:

The books I cannot find in ebook format still must end up in ebook format in order for me to read them. Thus, I have begun purchasing used copies of the paper books from legitimate stores, and throwing them immediately into an old box. Then I "acquire" the exact same book, in a more appropriate format, and proceed to enjoy the story that I have paid for.

My main point is that I am MORE THAN WILLING to pay for ebooks at full price, if they are available. If those books are not available in ebook format, I will still pay for them, but I will find the cheapest legitimate source and convert them myself.

</rant>

Fain · 08-06-2007, 06:14 PM

I'm sure you do that.

HarryT · 08-07-2007, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogg

The books I cannot find in ebook format still must end up in ebook format in order for me to read them. Thus, I have begun purchasing used copies of the paper books from legitimate stores, and throwing them immediately into an old box. Then I "acquire" the exact same book, in a more appropriate format, and proceed to enjoy the story that I have paid for.

If you mean that you are downloading these books from the Internet then you are breaking the law. Don't kid yourself that you're not.

You could, I believe, in the US at least (but not in the UK) scan these paper books that you're buying yourself, and use those scans for personal use, but that does NOT make it legal to download somebody else's scan from the internet.

KaiGoth · 08-07-2007, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you mean that you are downloading these books from the Internet then you are breaking the law. Don't kid yourself that you're not.

You could, I believe, in the US at least (but not in the UK) scan these paper books that you're buying yourself, and use those scans for personal use, but that does NOT make it legal to download somebody else's scan from the internet.

Personally, I don't think there "would be" any issue in the US here for that. As far as I know, fair use never gets that specific and we have no precedent.

Ethically, as long as the book (new or used) is purchased/acquired prior to the download and that download is not shared or uploaded, I think it is perfectly all right. JMO though. I would personally not likely go to all that trouble myself, as one of the reasons I got an eBook reader was so I wouldn't have to go to the library/book store all the time. I have enough trouble finding what I want at B&N, let alone a used book shop.

Nogg · 08-07-2007, 02:50 AM

I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I try very hard to make sure I'm not stealing.

You are correct that downloading books is illegal.

Really my point is simple. It's a desperate plea to Sony and/or the publishers to provide as many books in e-form as possible, and to make sure the software can support their distribution. It's very frustrating to me as a consumer to know the digital forms of most of these books exist and yet are not available, either by choice or ineptitude.

I know I'm an early adopter, and I'm trying to keep that in mind, but when books actually ARE available and then disappear, it makes it really hard.

Nogg · 08-07-2007, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaiGoth

I have enough trouble finding what I want at B&N, let alone a used book shop.

I'm with you there. Luckily B&N.com and Amazon carry lots of used books alongside the new ones through their sister stores.

athlonkmf · 08-07-2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you mean that you are downloading these books from the Internet then you are breaking the law. Don't kid yourself that you're not.

that is not entirely true for all countries. In the netherlands, downloading is not illegal, as long as you don't break any copyright measures. That means you can download software and games, but can't install and use them (if they need to be cracked)

Alexander Turcic · 08-07-2007, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by athlonkmf

that is not entirely true for all countries. In the netherlands, downloading is not illegal, as long as you don't break any copyright measures. That means you can download software and games, but can't install and use them (if they need to be cracked)

Here in Switzerland, in theory, it's not punishable to download something through the internet. Supporters of the "Schweizer Urheberrechtsgesetz" (URG) argue that it's the responsibility of the copyright-holder to make sure something that should not appear online does not appear online. Swiss jurists argue that it's too much to ask of the consumer to figure out what's legal and what's illegal.

Furthermore, the law explicitly allows the cracking of DRM protections for private use.

For obvious reasons, this law is under constant attack and likely to be changed in the future.

athlonkmf · 08-07-2007, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Turcic

Here in Switzerland, in theory, it's not punishable to download something through the internet. Supporters of the "Schweizer Urheberrechtsgesetz" (URG) argue that it's the responsibility of the copyright-holder to make sure something that should not appear online does not appear online. Swiss jurists argue that it's too much to ask of the consumer to figure out what's legal and what's illegal.

Furthermore, the law explicitly allows the cracking of DRM protections for private use.

For obvious reasons, this law is under constant attack and likely to be changed in the future.

Proofs that different countries has different laws and one should not simple say "downloading is illegal". "Downloading is not right" is another discussion

Nogg · 08-07-2007, 01:26 PM

I think Harry was specifically referring to the US, where I live. The issues here are still somewhat fuzzy as well, with decisions going in both directions, depending on the case/judge. Fair use is even being attacked by the RIAA because they're concerned that anything uncontrolled by them will lead to piracy.

JSWolf · 08-07-2007, 01:48 PM

Nogg, have you though that if the book you want as an ebook is not available from Connect that you could see if it's available as LIT and you should know the rest by now.

jasonkchapman · 08-07-2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogg

The books I cannot find in ebook format still must end up in ebook format in order for me to read them. Thus, I have begun purchasing used copies of the paper books from legitimate stores, and throwing them immediately into an old box. Then I "acquire" the exact same book, in a more appropriate format, and proceed to enjoy the story that I have paid for.

You know, your argument was a lot stronger before you specified buying used books. If you bought them new, you could at least stand on the small patch of moral ground by supporting the authors and publishers and declaring it a matter of format shifting.

By specifically buying used, you lose that. You're no longer supporting the author or the publisher and you're sending no signal up the market chain that might indicate enough interest in the title to prompt either a new edition, a reprint, or the production of an electronic edition. No one in a position to do anything about it has any clue that there is interest in the title.

Just a thought.

Nogg · 08-07-2007, 03:03 PM

JSWolf: I spent a lot of time trying to find a copy in any form. I almost did once, but then it turned out to just be a click-through to "here are some places that might have your book." They didn't.

Jason: You're right in the regard that the market data likely isn't getting through. However, it seems that publishers don't want to create ebooks (because of piracy concerns) if paper books are still selling as usual. My hope is that by buying the used book, I'm indicating my willingness to pay for the content, but that I'm not supporting their current paper market in their ideal manner. I'd MUCH prefer to buy the more expensive, but nicely formatted lrf, since the other formats usually don't look as nice, even when passed through the tools we have available here.

The specific title isn't as important to me as getting across the idea that ALL books should be available in e-form, especially since the publishers already have them in some digital format already. My assertion is that I'm paying for the books I receive legally, but not in the way that the publishers want, and that's the message.

jasonkchapman · 08-07-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nogg

My assertion is that I'm paying for the books I receive legally, but not in the way that the publishers want, and that's the message.

Yeah, I get that. The problem is that it's yelling into a vacuum. No one is getting the message except the flea market/ebay seller/used book store where you buy the books. And they can't do a bloody thing about it.

The message the publishers get is that fewer people are reading, because fewer people are buying books. They're also getting the message that no one is interested in any titles once the initial print run is gone. The only thing they might see from your process is that the **AA folks must be right, because there's a bunch of unauthorized ebook downloading going on and no corresponding sales of their backlist to match. The conclusion is that people download them so that they don't have to pay for them.

If you buy the books new, there will be a record of interest in books, a record of interest in the specific titles you choose, and some value to the author. Then when they see that said title is being downloaded as an unauthorized ebook, it would stand a chance of matching up. Even publishing folks, as backward and slow-to-evolve as they are, will eventually make the connection.

sea2stars · 08-07-2007, 06:29 PM

Um. If more people buy the paper version of a book, how exactly is that going to motivate anyone to release an e-version? No. It's the publishers who have to react and change to the will of the market. They've made the connection, but things won't change anytime soon. Why not automatically release a book that goes out of print as an ebook, or after the initial print run is done, or after a set time? If they're so worried about piracy, then give us the respect and option to buy the e-version of the book. I'm tired of business blaming piracy for the corporate worlds woes, instead of changing their ways to provide another option.

Meanwhile I'll continue to but used books, used CDs and the occasional new book when they're initially released; whether on paper or eink.

08-06-2007, 06:06 PM	#1
Nogg Literate! Posts: 256 Karma: 2247 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: PRS-500	My solution to Connect I hope I'm not breaking any rules by saying this, but I'm hoping that this may eventually reach eyes that will make it worthwhile. After back and forth emails and phone calls, I'm pretty disappointed in the support and the organization of the Connect store. Books have gone missing from their site despite their assurances that the chances of that are very slim. Trying to get them back, or indeed even to find proof of their past existence seems to be impossible. I love my Reader. I want to use it for every book I read. I want to pay legitimately for the media I obtain to support the creators. I want that media to be available in the most convenient form for me. Ripping the CD's I buy to mp3 for my own personal use falls under "fair use", which I firmly believe in. I definitely don't share the songs out, nor do I even allow my friends to "borrow" the CD's. Books are a slightly different matter, as the conversion process is much more difficult. I'm even willing to accept DRM on my purchased ebooks, while with music I only buy from non-DRM sources, or else I go without. Thus, my solution: The books I cannot find in ebook format still must end up in ebook format in order for me to read them. Thus, I have begun purchasing used copies of the paper books from legitimate stores, and throwing them immediately into an old box. Then I "acquire" the exact same book, in a more appropriate format, and proceed to enjoy the story that I have paid for. My main point is that I am MORE THAN WILLING to pay for ebooks at full price, if they are available. If those books are not available in ebook format, I will still pay for them, but I will find the cheapest legitimate source and convert them myself. </rant>

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08-06-2007, 06:14 PM	#2
Fain Member Posts: 18 Karma: 18 Join Date: Jul 2007 Device: Sony PRS500	I'm sure you do that.

08-07-2007, 02:50 AM	#5
Nogg Literate! Posts: 256 Karma: 2247 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: PRS-500	I'm not saying I'm a saint, but I try very hard to make sure I'm not stealing. You are correct that downloading books is illegal. Really my point is simple. It's a desperate plea to Sony and/or the publishers to provide as many books in e-form as possible, and to make sure the software can support their distribution. It's very frustrating to me as a consumer to know the digital forms of most of these books exist and yet are not available, either by choice or ineptitude. I know I'm an early adopter, and I'm trying to keep that in mind, but when books actually ARE available and then disappear, it makes it really hard.

08-07-2007, 01:26 PM	#10
Nogg Literate! Posts: 256 Karma: 2247 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: PRS-500	I think Harry was specifically referring to the US, where I live. The issues here are still somewhat fuzzy as well, with decisions going in both directions, depending on the case/judge. Fair use is even being attacked by the RIAA because they're concerned that anything uncontrolled by them will lead to piracy.

08-07-2007, 01:48 PM	#11
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,943 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Nogg, have you though that if the book you want as an ebook is not available from Connect that you could see if it's available as LIT and you should know the rest by now.

08-07-2007, 03:03 PM	#13
Nogg Literate! Posts: 256 Karma: 2247 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: PRS-500	JSWolf: I spent a lot of time trying to find a copy in any form. I almost did once, but then it turned out to just be a click-through to "here are some places that might have your book." They didn't. Jason: You're right in the regard that the market data likely isn't getting through. However, it seems that publishers don't want to create ebooks (because of piracy concerns) if paper books are still selling as usual. My hope is that by buying the used book, I'm indicating my willingness to pay for the content, but that I'm not supporting their current paper market in their ideal manner. I'd MUCH prefer to buy the more expensive, but nicely formatted lrf, since the other formats usually don't look as nice, even when passed through the tools we have available here. The specific title isn't as important to me as getting across the idea that ALL books should be available in e-form, especially since the publishers already have them in some digital format already. My assertion is that I'm paying for the books I receive legally, but not in the way that the publishers want, and that's the message.

08-07-2007, 06:29 PM	#15
sea2stars Zealot Posts: 104 Karma: 64 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: eb1150, Sony Reader	Um. If more people buy the paper version of a book, how exactly is that going to motivate anyone to release an e-version? No. It's the publishers who have to react and change to the will of the market. They've made the connection, but things won't change anytime soon. Why not automatically release a book that goes out of print as an ebook, or after the initial print run is done, or after a set time? If they're so worried about piracy, then give us the respect and option to buy the e-version of the book. I'm tired of business blaming piracy for the corporate worlds woes, instead of changing their ways to provide another option. Meanwhile I'll continue to but used books, used CDs and the occasional new book when they're initially released; whether on paper or eink.

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