Why don't people use professional copy editors?

[HarryT]

I notice, in various threads, that a number of people have said that they don't have their books professionally edited, and I was wondering what the reason for that was. Is it simply down to the cost involved, or are there other reasons?

[weedfreak]

Cost is usually given as the reason for not doing it. but I have offered my services for free to quite a few authors and only a handful took up the offer, so cost is not the only factor.

It is a pity that more books are not proofread, even a cursory read by someone who is not the author will throw up several problems. If I buy an ebook or even get one free that is obviously not proofread then I decline all future offerings from that author, and I have even asked for, though not always got, a refund if it is really bad.

[Michael J Hunt]

It's distressing, but a lot of people out there don't give a toss about bad grammar and typos, either when they're writing or reading (in fact, some wouldn't know what they were if they bit them on the ankle). Maybe it's up to those of us, who do care, to keep up the standard. We have a beautiful language and we should strive to keep it so.

MJ

[rhadin]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I notice, in various threads, that a number of people have said that they don't have their books professionally edited, and I was wondering what the reason for that was. Is it simply down to the cost involved, or are there other reasons?

There are lots of reasons, Harry. I've heard many of them in my 25 years as a professional editor.

The problem begins with expectations. Authors sometimes have unrealistic expectations about what an editor does and can do. And when those expectations aren't met, the idea of hiring an editor gets circulating bad press focused on how the editor failed the author. This is particularly true when an author believes that hiring an editor will lead to a publisher picking up the book.

Cost is also a major factor. Many people believe, incorrectly, that a quality edit can be done in a couple of hours for less than $100 and are shocked when they learn that it can take hundreds of hours at a rate of $35 to $100 or more an hour. When an author starts sinking that kind of money into his or her book, they expect that the final version will be picked up by a publisher and are furious when it isn't.

Then there are authors and author groups who tell their colleagues and members how they can do it all themselves and save themselves a lot of money. There are a handful of authors who can, in fact, do it all themselves and do it very well, but most authors cannot. The SFWA, for example, pushes the do-it-yourself approach.

There is also the reputation that the vanity presses have engendeered. Vanity presses are noted for taking one's money and providing little in return. Many authors view hiring professional editors as a vanity press scam, which it is not.

Some authors believe that every word, every bit of punctuation in their manuscript is sacrosanct and perfect and thus hiring an editor would be a waste. One cannot improve on perfection.

And there is the problem of friends and neighbors who believe that because they found 3 misspellings in the latest tome by bestselling author XYZ that they can do the same job as a professional editor and they are willing to do it for free or for a nominal fee. Because saving money is built into the consumer psyche, authors often adopt this approach. They also find that their colleagues and professional guilds promote this method as well.

There is also the difficulty in telling the professional from the amateur and being certain one is not being ripped off.

There are numerous other reasons given, but in the end they all boil down to cost and the lack of certitude that hiring a professional editor will result in a publisher picking up the book.

For those wanting more information, here are some articles at my blog:

1. The Professional Editor's Bookshelf
2. On Words: Is the Correct Word Important?
3. On Words & eBooks: Give Me a Brake!
4. Publishers vs. Editors & the Bottom Line: Readers are the Losers
5. For the Lack of an Editor, the Debate Changed
6. Truman & MacArthur & Why a Good Editor is Important
7. Professional Editors: Publishers and Authors Need Them (Part 1)
8. Professional Editors: Publishers and Authors Need Them (Part 2)
9. Editor, Editor, Everywhere an Editor

The last one, Editor, Editor, Everywhere an Editor, describes the what a developmental editor and a copyeditor do.

[ImogenRose]

Originally Posted by Michael J Hunt

It's distressing, but a lot of people out there don't give a toss about bad grammar and typos, either when they're writing or reading (in fact, some wouldn't know what they were if they bit them on the ankle). Maybe it's up to those of us, who do care, to keep up the standard. We have a beautiful language and we should strive to keep it so.

MJ

I agree and wish there was a way for me to be able to afford to pay a professional copy editor. However, I can't and I have to rely on friends to proof read my books.

[lene1949]

Someone just posted about his book.. I found an error on the first page, and will not buy...

I'm studying Professional Editing and Proofreading (mostly to improve my English language skills) and I get so peed off, when I see such bad mistakes...

One that really got me, was about a kid, who was 6 years old and 4 years old in the same 5 line paragraph! Unbelievable...

I agree that authors are very protective of their work (it's perfect, they have run a spellchecker and grammar checker).. I think it must come down to their insecurity.. why else wouldn't they take advantage of a free proofread?

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by rhadin

Many people believe, incorrectly, that a quality edit can be done in a couple of hours for less than $100 and are shocked when they learn that it can take hundreds of hours at a rate of $35 to $100 or more an hour.

Yes, quite true. Years ago, I fell into the trap of the scam editor, claiming they could edit my whole book for $99. When the sample edit came back, all this so-called "editor" had done is basically swap out every other word for another with more impact or pizazz, at least, more in their view. As it turned out, their edit introduced grammatical errors. Needless to say, I trashed that crap and ran for the hills.

This experience made me very nervous after that, and disillusioned that actual editors even existed. But then I found one --

The project in my example is three books, each close to 100K words, some less, some more, but on average that gives a good idea of size involved. A total sum around 300K.

The first book was $900 on the first edit, the second book $1400 (higher word count and other issues), and both of those books went back for a second edit after the third book cost a similar amount. I've lost track, but it's in the thousands that I've spent on editing, and it's been worth every penny.

The editor I finally found (nearly six years ago) is not only a copy editor, or grammar editor, she is also a developmental editor. So while she shot down all my, shall we say "creative" attempts at grammar, she was also instrumental in pointing out the instances in which I would so perfectly build tension only to let go of the balloon and let it slap around the room as it quickly deflated. Only one example of how she has taught me the finer points of keeping the reader reading. She is a phenomenal story editor on top of all the rest we expect of an editor. The other thing many people may not realize -- there is a lot to know about grammar and the English language, but there is no less to know about storytelling. It is a craft to be developed like any other.

Editors not only correct grammatical errors and misspellings, they help authors write better stories.

There is no substitute for the experience of waiting months for an edit (of a manuscript you thought was perfect), only to see it marked to death (at your expense), which makes you angry at first (How could she! I paid for this?). Then you calm down, study, and realize the editor is right. Then you spend countless hours (thought you were done, eh?) rewriting per the editor's notes. The result of this process is priceless. My work would not be half as good without the edit/rewrite process.

Oh, and by the way, the first book is available now, second will be out in June. Third, well, still working on those rewrites, you know, gotta make my editor happy (grin).

Dead Forever: Awakening

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0034G6628

http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/8981

http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/...?BookID=263460

[Michael J Hunt]

William, I think that's so very true. In the 'old' days, a publishing house would assign an editor to an author; what went on between them no-one would ever know, but it makes you wonder just how much of their books is truly 'their' work. I occasionally edit books for friends, and I also edit academic work for students with English as a second language. In both cases there are ethical issues to be addressed. My own policy is not to deliberately change the meaning of anything; however, I also look out for obvious factual errors and ambiguities, and I'll point them out (but not necessarily correct them, especially if it's an academic edit).

I think the editor has more leeway in a fictional work (for instance, the error mentioned by Lene about the age of a child is a factual error that any editor would correct - if, of course, he/she knew the age of the child). However, 'story' editing is a highly specialist skill, which, I'm quite sure, I don't have. It also raises the ethical question to a different level. If, say, in a detective story, a piece of evidence has become distorted in the self-editing process, a good general editor would spot it and suggest a corrective; and, if the editor spotted a blindingly obvious flaw, which would entail a virtual re-write, he/she would feel obliged to point this out. I suppose this is what the author is paying an editor to do. However, what if the editor sees the opportunity for a much better story? If he/she were to suggest that to the author, might it be considered unethical? I suppose the author could always ignore the suggestion.

You appear to have been very lucky to find a good editor, William. I've also been lucky, since I paid for my first two published books to be 'appraised' (rather than edited) and I know that I'd have been much less satisfied with them had I not had some very good advice; also, I'm not ashamed to acknowledge receiving that advice. An appraisal is much less expensive than an edit, so, that's what I'd recommend to anyone self-publishing or trying to be published in the main-stream, alongside, of course, a good self-editing book (Self-editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King is my bible now).

MJ

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by Michael J Hunt

what if the editor sees the opportunity for a much better story? If he/she were to suggest that to the author, might it be considered unethical? I suppose the author could always ignore the suggestion.

No ethics involved, Michael, at least in my case. My editor has suggested many ideas along the way, and I take what works for me. Some have been fantastic, and totally clicked. Others, ah, no thanks. She does not force anything on me. All she does is mark up a printed copy and give it back, along with a detailed critique of the entire work. Sometimes when she has lots to say about particular sections her notes end up on the back of some pages. At that point the rewrites are left to me. She never touches the original manuscript.

Originally Posted by Michael J Hunt

... alongside, of course, a good self-editing book (Self-editing for Fiction Writers by Renni Browne and Dave King is my bible now).

Indeed a fantastic book, a copy of which I own myself and have read more than once. Which reminds me of another great book coming out this month in print (on Smashwords for now). Look for "The Editor's Lexicon: Essential Writing Terms for Novelists," by Sarah Cypher, who just so happens to be that fabulous editor I've been talking about. (Couldn't resist the opportunity to plug a valued colleague.)

[nomesque]

Cost is my main issue when it comes to professional copy editing. A thorough job costs a lot, and a basic spelling-and-grammar check I can do myself, no point paying for that. I've been working professionally as a tech writer and editor for years, so I do have experience in editing my own work. <--- That said, I'm well aware that I could do with a good editor for my work. That's a whole different ballpark from checking basic facts and spelling. And as a kind reader pointed out to me a couple of days ago, one of my characters went from blue to orange in the space of a chapter...

[Michael J Hunt]

Hello Nomesq,

I recommend you look at Rhadin's contribution and the articles he refers to regarding the true cost (in hours of work) of a full edit. It is expensive, but, if a writer is confident that he/she can pick up the typos etc, then perhaps an appraisal is what you want, and this should be significantly cheaper. I believe that an experienced editor needs an editor for his/her own writing in the same way that a doctor needs another doctor to dianose a personal illness. It's amazing how much I miss in a self-edit (not so much in the quantity of errors, but in a few screamingly obvious and very basic ones). I think the brain takes short-cuts at points where it's convinced it's got things 'right' over the previous hundred readings.

William, I suppose my point about ethics relates more to academic editing; perhaps a different word pertains to fiction writers, but I can't think of an appropriate one. One thing I believe is for certain, authors who who think they can go it entirely alone and still produce publishable books (that is, professionally published) are either geniuses, or are destined never to see their work in book form.

I've made a note of Sarah's book and shall definitely take a look at it.

MJ

[EowynCarter]

Being dyslexic, lots of typos, i won't even see them.
But yeah, i've e-book so badly proofread even I saw the mistakes.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

For me, cost is absolutely the factor, and in fact, since I only make a small amount off of any one book, I would lose that profit by a considerable margin by having it professionally edited.

So, I have friends proofread when I can, and do a lot of it myself at any rate. I'm finding that as long as I'm not rushing, my editing/proofreading is significantly better, so I try not to set a "deadline" in my head that I must meet to finish a project.

Honestly, I haven't figured out how a small-time writer like myself can make the high cost of editing work... it seems to only be workable within higher profits of the Big Publishing system, or suitable to those who can afford to spend a month's mortgage payment (or two) on something without necessarily expecting to make much or any of it back...

[William Campbell]

Originally Posted by nomesque

And as a kind reader pointed out to me a couple of days ago, one of my characters went from blue to orange in the space of a chapter...

Mood change? (grin)

Seriously, so very true -- the number of details one must carry in the mind's filing cabinet while concocting a story can be overwhelming. Some blunders go undetected for the longest time. I have one such instance that is somewhat amusing, and this shouldn't be too much of a spoiler. Rather than the future, my space opera begins in the past, a long time ago, just not far away, it happens in this galaxy. However, I've portrayed things as being not so different from today, which becomes a fine line to walk. Early in the story, I had the character order French toast for breakfast. Oops. France didn't exist yet, and the blunder went undetected through many drafts. In the end, I settled on "Egg-fried toast," which becomes funny in itself, because now readers ask me, what the heck is that?

For these kind of things, in many cases a talented reader dedicated to finding story flaws can be as helpful as any pro editor, and sometimes even more helpful. In his book "On Writing" Stephen King talks about having an "ideal reader." I agree and follow this advice, adding to the help of pros. My IR is my daughter, who is an avid reader herself. She doesn't find flaws in grammar nearly as much as the blue changing to orange type goofs. She seems to be a magnet for that kind of error, they just scream at her. Every author needs one of these helpers as well, and they are typically a close friend or relative with high interest in what you are trying to accomplish.

Another super effective (and inexpensive) alternative to editing help is having the computer read the manuscript. In fact, even though I seek the services of others, I still use this step and find errors missed by everyone else including myself. We are all human after all, and the computer is not, however it may try.

I use Natural Reader on my PC. The voices are incredibly realistic, I'd say 95% of the time. Only a few weird inflections now and then. Having your own writing read back to you uncovers so many errors, and for me it seems to be a certain group of them. Loud for load, knell/kneel, through/though, all those kinds, and there are plenty. Then there's the case of a word missing altogether, and reading it on screen, on paper, projected on a wall, whatever, every time you read it your mind fills in the blank. Amazing, that mental marvel. But when the computer reads it, whoa, what the heck was that? Highly recommended means of checking your work, and the software is reasonably priced.

$3.99 for a good fictive dream - Dead Forever Awakening
Smashwords - http://www.smashwords.com/books/view/8981
Amazon - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0034G6628

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by William Campbell

Another super effective (and inexpensive) alternative to editing help is having the computer read the manuscript. In fact, even though I seek the services of others, I still use this step and find errors missed by everyone else including myself. We are all human after all, and the computer is not, however it may try.

Never thought of that one. I have to remember to try that myself.