copyrights or not

bobcdy · 07-25-2011, 07:37 PM

I recently posted a question in the workshop and receive no answers. I thought I would try here and see if there are any opinions:

I'd like to make an ebook involving a very old English scientific work that was published in Old English (or sometimes called Fraktur) with many ligature such as an odd glyph for c and t made by connecting the c with a curly line to the top of the t, there were others oddities such as the s looks almost like an f. The result is that a OCR of the scan creates numerous highly variable errors because as in the case of the ct ligature, the ocr doesn't know what it is and may think it's a 'c' or a 'd' or a 't' or something such as $. This makes it impossible to perform a search and replace to quickly correct a large number of ocr mistakes, and manually correcting these errors is extraordinarily time-consuming.

Recently the fractur book was reissued in a modern font with an detailed new analysis and discussion of the work.

I'd like to use the modern reissue for making the ebook (only from the original early text and nothing unique to the current book) but I don't know if the change to modern type consitutes a reason for a new copyright. I don't think it should, because, for example, simply changing the font from the original type to Book Antiqua on a public domain book doesn't trigger copyright protection. Changing a frakture font to a modern one isn't like a true translation of changing one language to another because there is no originality involved - there are ocr programs (very expensive) that will automatically change the fraktur font to its modern equivalent.

What is your opinion - does the change in font create a new copyright?

pholy · 07-25-2011, 08:41 PM

I would say that there is no copyright to the text; I would say it is still in the public domain (assuming it already was). But not the analysis or discussion, of course.

Note that sheet music seems to be a counter-example. Almost each new "engraving" is considered a new edition, with a new copyright. Even if it is a Bach or Beethoven work.

But I am not a lawyer specialising in copyright law in any country,,,,

pholy · 07-25-2011, 08:48 PM

I just realised that I have a similar problem: I would like to take a modern printing of a 19th century work by an English-speaking author (so no translator copyright), and scan it to produce a 'portfolio work' which I could distribute as a sample.

Maybe I should dig up\\\\\\find a lawyer about this.

crich70 · 07-25-2011, 10:08 PM

The only thing I can think of is that if it were a translation from one language to another and the translation was fairly recent then although the original work wouldn't be under copyright the translation might still be. So if someone produced a new translation of the Iliad for example from the original Greek then that might be considered to be under copyright although Homer's work itself is certainly pre- 1923 material.

bobcdy · 07-25-2011, 10:17 PM

For some reason I've concluded that modern translations from one language to another do involve copyright protection. For example, the Alfred Wegener's German book on continental drift was published in 1922, but the English translation was published much more recently and is copyrighted (at least I think so). I'd like to make an ebook from Wegener's book but have been discouraged from this because of copyright issues.
Bob

pholy · 07-25-2011, 10:51 PM

Actually, the right to produce the translation belongs to the original author for the life of the copyright, and is licensed to a translator, whose own work likewise has its own copyright. At least, that's what my book (the one I bought, written by Laura J Murray) on Canadian copyright says. So, yep, you're right.

You could epub the German text, of course, but I'm guessing that might be less useful for most of us English speakers.

taustin · 07-25-2011, 11:08 PM

It can get complicated. If it's not translated, then my personal (and poorly informed) opinion is that it shouldn't be copyrighted. However, my opinion, and yours, isn't what really matters. What matters is whether or not the publisher of the new edition thinks it's copyrighted. If they decide it is, and come after you, it'll cost you thousands of dollars (if it goes to trial, at least $100,000) even if you win. Unfornately, if there's a new analysis and discussion in it, that most certainly is copyrighted, so the book itself will have a copyright notice in it.

The obvious approach is to contact the publisher and ask them if they consider the original Old English text part of their copyright, and if so, can you use it anyway?

Hellmark · 07-26-2011, 12:32 AM

This is certainly lawyer territory.

My personal opinion is that if you use the modern text as a short cut to reproduce the original, and the final product fully represents the original (including using same characters as used in the original), then what ever applies to the original is what applies to yours. To the best of my knowledge as well, a simple font change does not constitute a new copyright. New alternative phrasing, additional text, etc is what would allow for a copyright to be placed over that version. Without seeing the various versions, it is difficult to say what copyrights come into play.

charleski · 07-26-2011, 03:57 AM

The text (i.e. the list of words in a particular order) is clearly not copyrighted. But it is possible to copyright the means by which it is presented.

What this means is that there's no restriction on you distributing the words themselves, and it doesn't matter whether you got those words from a modern or ancient copy (as long as they're the same). But you couldn't simply photocopy the new version and distribute a copy of that (it's quite common for reprints to be made using photographs of a previous printing rather than resetting the text - to do this you need to own the copyright in the previous layout). This is why it's possible to copyright a new 'engraving' of Beethoven, since music can be laid out in many different ways, and doing so in a way that's useful for a performing musician adds value to the basic notation.

So you'll be quite alright if you scan the new version, OCR it and produce a new layout of the basic text, but you couldn't distribute a PDF made up of scanned jpegs. The only possible issue I can see is that in the process of doing the OCR you're creating a temporary copy of the new work in your computer's memory, but as long as this is destroyed after it's used it should be fine.

Any sort of modern translation is a different issue, since the creative effort involved in producing the translation has its own copyright.

HarryT · 07-26-2011, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobcdy

For some reason I've concluded that modern translations from one language to another do involve copyright protection. For example, the Alfred Wegener's German book on continental drift was published in 1922, but the English translation was published much more recently and is copyrighted (at least I think so). I'd like to make an ebook from Wegener's book but have been discouraged from this because of copyright issues.
Bob

That is correct. A translation has its own copyright, completely independent of the copyright of the original book. A translation has a copyright which lasts for the lifetime of the translator + 70 years (or whatever it is where you live).

bobcdy · 07-26-2011, 02:16 PM

Thanks all for the replies! One advantage of the book I'm interested in is that there are available a facsimile copy and a modern equivalent copy of the book, so that detailed comparisons between the two can be made. Both must be based on a book published immediately after the author's death because there are no other very early publications as far as I know. Google Books would be ideal for the original but GB does not make it available, probably because of the availability of the 1970's facsimile book.

07-25-2011, 07:37 PM	#1
bobcdy Fanatic Posts: 527 Karma: 1048576 Join Date: May 2009 Device: bebook; prs-950; nook simple touch; HTC Jetstream tablet	copyrights or not I recently posted a question in the workshop and receive no answers. I thought I would try here and see if there are any opinions: I'd like to make an ebook involving a very old English scientific work that was published in Old English (or sometimes called Fraktur) with many ligature such as an odd glyph for c and t made by connecting the c with a curly line to the top of the t, there were others oddities such as the s looks almost like an f. The result is that a OCR of the scan creates numerous highly variable errors because as in the case of the ct ligature, the ocr doesn't know what it is and may think it's a 'c' or a 'd' or a 't' or something such as $. This makes it impossible to perform a search and replace to quickly correct a large number of ocr mistakes, and manually correcting these errors is extraordinarily time-consuming. Recently the fractur book was reissued in a modern font with an detailed new analysis and discussion of the work. I'd like to use the modern reissue for making the ebook (only from the original early text and nothing unique to the current book) but I don't know if the change to modern type consitutes a reason for a new copyright. I don't think it should, because, for example, simply changing the font from the original type to Book Antiqua on a public domain book doesn't trigger copyright protection. Changing a frakture font to a modern one isn't like a true translation of changing one language to another because there is no originality involved - there are ocr programs (very expensive) that will automatically change the fraktur font to its modern equivalent. What is your opinion - does the change in font create a new copyright? Last edited by bobcdy; 07-25-2011 at 07:41 PM.

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07-25-2011, 08:41 PM	#2
pholy Booklegger Posts: 1,801 Karma: 7999816 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Device: BeBook(1 & 2010), PEZ, PRS-505, Kobo BT, PRS-T1, Playbook, Kobo Touch	I would say that there is no copyright to the text; I would say it is still in the public domain (assuming it already was). But not the analysis or discussion, of course. Note that sheet music seems to be a counter-example. Almost each new "engraving" is considered a new edition, with a new copyright. Even if it is a Bach or Beethoven work. But I am not a lawyer specialising in copyright law in any country,,,,

07-25-2011, 08:48 PM	#3
pholy Booklegger Posts: 1,801 Karma: 7999816 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Device: BeBook(1 & 2010), PEZ, PRS-505, Kobo BT, PRS-T1, Playbook, Kobo Touch	I just realised that I have a similar problem: I would like to take a modern printing of a 19th century work by an English-speaking author (so no translator copyright), and scan it to produce a 'portfolio work' which I could distribute as a sample. Maybe I should dig up\\\\\\find a lawyer about this.

07-25-2011, 10:08 PM	#4
crich70 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,310 Karma: 43993832 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Monroe Wisconsin Device: K3, Kindle Paperwhite, Calibre, and Mobipocket for Pc (netbook)	The only thing I can think of is that if it were a translation from one language to another and the translation was fairly recent then although the original work wouldn't be under copyright the translation might still be. So if someone produced a new translation of the Iliad for example from the original Greek then that might be considered to be under copyright although Homer's work itself is certainly pre- 1923 material.

07-25-2011, 10:17 PM	#5
bobcdy Fanatic Posts: 527 Karma: 1048576 Join Date: May 2009 Device: bebook; prs-950; nook simple touch; HTC Jetstream tablet	For some reason I've concluded that modern translations from one language to another do involve copyright protection. For example, the Alfred Wegener's German book on continental drift was published in 1922, but the English translation was published much more recently and is copyrighted (at least I think so). I'd like to make an ebook from Wegener's book but have been discouraged from this because of copyright issues. Bob

07-25-2011, 10:51 PM	#6
pholy Booklegger Posts: 1,801 Karma: 7999816 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Device: BeBook(1 & 2010), PEZ, PRS-505, Kobo BT, PRS-T1, Playbook, Kobo Touch	Actually, the right to produce the translation belongs to the original author for the life of the copyright, and is licensed to a translator, whose own work likewise has its own copyright. At least, that's what my book (the one I bought, written by Laura J Murray) on Canadian copyright says. So, yep, you're right. You could epub the German text, of course, but I'm guessing that might be less useful for most of us English speakers.

07-25-2011, 11:08 PM	#7
taustin Wizard Posts: 1,358 Karma: 5766642 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: Nook	It can get complicated. If it's not translated, then my personal (and poorly informed) opinion is that it shouldn't be copyrighted. However, my opinion, and yours, isn't what really matters. What matters is whether or not the publisher of the new edition thinks it's copyrighted. If they decide it is, and come after you, it'll cost you thousands of dollars (if it goes to trial, at least $100,000) even if you win. Unfornately, if there's a new analysis and discussion in it, that most certainly is copyrighted, so the book itself will have a copyright notice in it. The obvious approach is to contact the publisher and ask them if they consider the original Old English text part of their copyright, and if so, can you use it anyway?

07-26-2011, 12:32 AM	#8
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,592 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	This is certainly lawyer territory. My personal opinion is that if you use the modern text as a short cut to reproduce the original, and the final product fully represents the original (including using same characters as used in the original), then what ever applies to the original is what applies to yours. To the best of my knowledge as well, a simple font change does not constitute a new copyright. New alternative phrasing, additional text, etc is what would allow for a copyright to be placed over that version. Without seeing the various versions, it is difficult to say what copyrights come into play.

07-26-2011, 03:57 AM	#9
charleski Wizard Posts: 1,196 Karma: 1281258 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-505	The text (i.e. the list of words in a particular order) is clearly not copyrighted. But it is possible to copyright the means by which it is presented. What this means is that there's no restriction on you distributing the words themselves, and it doesn't matter whether you got those words from a modern or ancient copy (as long as they're the same). But you couldn't simply photocopy the new version and distribute a copy of that (it's quite common for reprints to be made using photographs of a previous printing rather than resetting the text - to do this you need to own the copyright in the previous layout). This is why it's possible to copyright a new 'engraving' of Beethoven, since music can be laid out in many different ways, and doing so in a way that's useful for a performing musician adds value to the basic notation. So you'll be quite alright if you scan the new version, OCR it and produce a new layout of the basic text, but you couldn't distribute a PDF made up of scanned jpegs. The only possible issue I can see is that in the process of doing the OCR you're creating a temporary copy of the new work in your computer's memory, but as long as this is destroyed after it's used it should be fine. Any sort of modern translation is a different issue, since the creative effort involved in producing the translation has its own copyright.

07-26-2011, 02:16 PM	#11
bobcdy Fanatic Posts: 527 Karma: 1048576 Join Date: May 2009 Device: bebook; prs-950; nook simple touch; HTC Jetstream tablet	Thanks all for the replies! One advantage of the book I'm interested in is that there are available a facsimile copy and a modern equivalent copy of the book, so that detailed comparisons between the two can be made. Both must be based on a book published immediately after the author's death because there are no other very early publications as far as I know. Google Books would be ideal for the original but GB does not make it available, probably because of the availability of the 1970's facsimile book.

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