O'Reilly is a perfect example of why DRM is useless.

Zorz · 08-07-2010, 10:35 PM

I think O'Reilly is the perfect example of why DRM is really useless. They dont DRM their ebooks, though those non drm'ed books never show up in ebook piracy circles. What do you guys think?

hrickh · 08-07-2010, 10:45 PM

Not that I'm for DRM - I'm definitely not - but a quick search for O'Reilly books on a couple different torrent and filesharing sites comes up with gigs of ebooks from them.

They *EASILY* show up.

R.
==

Zorz · 08-07-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrickh

Not that I'm for DRM - I'm definitely not - but a quick search for O'Reilly books on a couple different torrent and filesharing sites comes up with gigs of ebooks from them.

They *EASILY* show up.

R.
==

Most of those books where there well before ereaders became popular and they are all in PDF, which all come from a different aspect of the scene. Try finding a mobi or epub version of one of their popular books. PDF's are not ebooks btw, they have been around for decades both with and without DRM. Most pirated PDF books come from paper books or publishers, not from drm decryption.

Its similar to saying pirated movies and music come from media payed for by consumers, they don't, they almost never do. Thats simply not the way media gets into piracy circles. The same is true for books.

hrickh · 08-07-2010, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorz

...
PDF's are not ebooks btw, they have been around for decades both with and without DRM.

I disagree with this statement. All the O'Reilly books that I've seen, whether in PDF or epub format (and yes, they're out there), began life as a printed, bound book. And most of those that I've seen are not scans either. They can be brought into a PDF editor and manipulated as regular text.

The "P" in PDF stands for portable, btw.

As an aside, if PDF weren't considered a valid ebook format, you probably wouldn't see a PDF subforum right here on mobileread.

R.
==

Zorz · 08-08-2010, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrickh

I disagree with this statement. All the O'Reilly books that I've seen, whether in PDF or epub format (and yes, they're out there), began life as a printed, bound book. And most of those that I've seen are not scans either. They can be brought into a PDF editor and manipulated as regular text.

The "P" in PDF stands for portable, btw.

As an aside, if PDF weren't considered a valid ebook format, you probably wouldn't see a PDF subforum right here on mobileread.

R.
==

That simply proves my point, that these files you are finding are not from consumers uploading cracked files.

hrickh · 08-08-2010, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorz

That simply proves my point, that these files you are finding are not from consumers uploading cracked files.

Are you suggesting that O'Reilly themselves put them up on Rapidshare, Pirate Bay, Isohunt, etc.? I don't know what they'd have to gain by doing so.

If not O'Reilly, it's the consumers that are uploading them.

R.
==

Zorz · 08-08-2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrickh

Are you suggesting that O'Reilly themselves put them up on Rapidshare, Pirate Bay, Isohunt, etc.? I don't know what they'd have to gain by doing so.

If not O'Reilly, it's the consumers that are uploading them.

R.
==

Not at all, its usually publishers and editors who leak them. Thats why many pdf's are listed as sample only.

read this to get a general idea of how files are actually distributed. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/topsite.html

Nobody is sitting their uploading their own bought copy.

Hellmark · 08-08-2010, 03:24 AM

Ok, I figured I'd test your theory out. Logic says, if the pirated copies of stuff are all older or homebrew with few exceptions, then anything I grab should be homebrew. I ran a search for oreilly in the pirate bay, grabbed the first ebook I saw and downloaded it. Upon opening it up, I was greated with a PDF that was not simply a scan, and the meta info seemed to match up with that of the legal O'Reilly ebooks I have. If that is such a rare occurrence, how come I hit it on the first try?

Zorz · 08-08-2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmark

Ok, I figured I'd test your theory out. Logic says, if the pirated copies of stuff are all older or homebrew with few exceptions, then anything I grab should be homebrew. I ran a search for oreilly in the pirate bay, grabbed the first ebook I saw and downloaded it. Upon opening it up, I was greated with a PDF that was not simply a scan, and the meta info seemed to match up with that of the legal O'Reilly ebooks I have. If that is such a rare occurrence, how come I hit it on the first try?

Thats doesn't prove a thing. But again, as I said that doesn't mean it came from a customer.

amoroso · 08-08-2010, 05:33 AM

I love O'Reilly and their DRM free ebooks. Indeed, just after buying an Opus, my very first ebook purchase was an O'Reilly ePub title as a token of my appreciation and encouragement. Their ebooks seem a bit pricey though.

HarryT · 08-08-2010, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorz

Thats doesn't prove a thing. But again, as I said that doesn't mean it came from a customer.

With respect, Zorz, you stated that "those non drm'ed books never show up in ebook piracy circles". One counter-example is sufficient to invalidate this assertion, and this has been provided. So-called "pirates" have no respect for "the good guys" of the publishing business. You only have to look at the number of Baen books that are distributed illegally to see that.

Jonimeesermann · 08-08-2010, 02:26 PM

Well Zorz, either you don't try to find it hard enough or smart enough.. I can find pretty much a lot of ebook by O'Reilly in the darknet circulation. Heck, I even find that one guy here at mobileread linking his epub format O'Reilly book to his personal website. Maybe the guy didn't have intention to share it illegally, and i can't remember what he wants to do with thread he started (I think it's related with epub formatting and his ereader device).

Beside that, yes, pdf is the most common format that will show up when you search, but epub and some chm format is also out there in the darknet.

And according to your thread title which suggest that drm is useless because O'Reilly books never appear in ebook piracy circles, I don't think that proves it at all. I think that (and like many people here who have same opinion) when ebook is reasonably priced, have good quality and formatting, no stupid geographic restriction, and convenienced to purchased, people will eventually buy it in legit way, rather than have to go through the hoops of finding pirated ebook. That way, drm will be useless because it just give an unnecessary inconvenience

Kali Yuga · 08-08-2010, 03:28 PM

Sounds to me like this is just a bald assertion with zero evidence. (On a web forum no less? I'm shocked. Truly.

)

EDIT: Not just a bald assertion, a patently false one as well. It took me about 60 seconds to find a torrent of a 3gb set of O'Reilly books. Somehow I doubt that downloading it would qualify as a legal act.

We don't know O'Reilly's numbers, we don't know if sales and/or revenues and/or profits would go up or down if they added DRM.

In addition, what works for O'Reilly may not work for others. They're happy to write off unauthorized downloads as a type of promotional cost. Meanwhile, O'Reilly pays a low royalty rate (10%) aren't reimbursing authors for possible "lost sales," and has a tech-savvy and sensitive audience. All of these are factors largely unique to them and their business model.

In contrast, a publisher like Penguin, with a large multinational business and dozens of imprints, and authors with more substantial royalties who will get much more irked by lost sales, may just as easily have bad results as good without DRM.

The only thing O'Reilly shows is that for their business, they are willing to take the hit. Perhaps this extends to other publishers, perhaps not, their experience isn't really proof either way.

murraypaul · 08-08-2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

In addition, what works for O'Reilly may not work for others. They're happy to write off unauthorized downloads as a type of promotional cost. Meanwhile, O'Reilly pays a low royalty rate (10%) aren't reimbursing authors for possible "lost sales," and has a tech-savvy and sensitive audience. All of these are factors largely unique to them and their business model.

Also probably a customer base where a reasonable proportion of the sales are corporate. Why go out of my way to get the free version if I'm not paying for it anyway, my company is?

pwalker8 · 08-08-2010, 05:49 PM

The PDF versions of O'Reilly's ebooks have your name embedded on each page to discourage people from making them available to other people. That's probably why most of the O'Reilly books you see on the darknets are scanned books rather than copied ebooks (note, I haven't checked myself, just going by what a previous poster says). I do have a number of O'Reilly books, so I really can't imagine someone putting such a PDF up for everyone to access.

08-07-2010, 10:35 PM	#1
Zorz Zealot Posts: 134 Karma: 36 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: Kindle 2i	O'Reilly is a perfect example of why DRM is useless. I think O'Reilly is the perfect example of why DRM is really useless. They dont DRM their ebooks, though those non drm'ed books never show up in ebook piracy circles. What do you guys think?

08-08-2010, 03:28 PM	#13
Kali Yuga Professional Contrarian Posts: 2,045 Karma: 3289631 Join Date: Mar 2009 Device: Kindle 4 No Touchie	Sounds to me like this is just a bald assertion with zero evidence. (On a web forum no less? I'm shocked. Truly. ) EDIT: Not just a bald assertion, a patently false one as well. It took me about 60 seconds to find a torrent of a 3gb set of O'Reilly books. Somehow I doubt that downloading it would qualify as a legal act. We don't know O'Reilly's numbers, we don't know if sales and/or revenues and/or profits would go up or down if they added DRM. In addition, what works for O'Reilly may not work for others. They're happy to write off unauthorized downloads as a type of promotional cost. Meanwhile, O'Reilly pays a low royalty rate (10%) aren't reimbursing authors for possible "lost sales," and has a tech-savvy and sensitive audience. All of these are factors largely unique to them and their business model. In contrast, a publisher like Penguin, with a large multinational business and dozens of imprints, and authors with more substantial royalties who will get much more irked by lost sales, may just as easily have bad results as good without DRM. The only thing O'Reilly shows is that for their business, they are willing to take the hit. Perhaps this extends to other publishers, perhaps not, their experience isn't really proof either way. Last edited by Kali Yuga; 08-08-2010 at 03:33 PM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Kobo store previews useless?	dmacmart	Kobo Reader	3	07-28-2010 10:43 AM
Neo Glitch or useless feature?	mathias	BeBook	1	05-26-2010 01:34 PM
Unutterably Silly Honda tops the Segway in the useless but useless market	ahammer	Lounge	16	04-28-2010 02:08 PM
PRS-600 UK Sony Warranty is useless!	Gatecra5her	Sony Reader	69	04-16-2010 03:17 PM
Over 160 O'Reilly Books Now in Kindle Store (without DRM)	anurag	News	11	04-21-2009 01:21 AM

08-07-2010, 10:45 PM	#2
hrickh Enthusiast Posts: 49 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2010 Device: Nokia N800, EeePC 4G Surf	Not that I'm for DRM - I'm definitely not - but a quick search for O'Reilly books on a couple different torrent and filesharing sites comes up with gigs of ebooks from them. They EASILY show up. R. ==

08-08-2010, 03:24 AM	#8
Hellmark Wizard Posts: 2,586 Karma: 4290425 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Foristell, Missouri, USA Device: Nokia N800, PRS-505, Nook STR Glowlight, Kindle 3, Kobo Libra 2	Ok, I figured I'd test your theory out. Logic says, if the pirated copies of stuff are all older or homebrew with few exceptions, then anything I grab should be homebrew. I ran a search for oreilly in the pirate bay, grabbed the first ebook I saw and downloaded it. Upon opening it up, I was greated with a PDF that was not simply a scan, and the meta info seemed to match up with that of the legal O'Reilly ebooks I have. If that is such a rare occurrence, how come I hit it on the first try?

08-08-2010, 05:33 AM	#10
amoroso Groupie Posts: 185 Karma: 1004070 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Italy Device: Kindle for Android, Google Play Books	I love O'Reilly and their DRM free ebooks. Indeed, just after buying an Opus, my very first ebook purchase was an O'Reilly ePub title as a token of my appreciation and encouragement. Their ebooks seem a bit pricey though.

08-08-2010, 02:26 PM	#12
Jonimeesermann Connoisseur Posts: 82 Karma: 12 Join Date: Apr 2010 Device: Nokia e71, Ipod Touch, Sony PRS 300	Well Zorz, either you don't try to find it hard enough or smart enough.. I can find pretty much a lot of ebook by O'Reilly in the darknet circulation. Heck, I even find that one guy here at mobileread linking his epub format O'Reilly book to his personal website. Maybe the guy didn't have intention to share it illegally, and i can't remember what he wants to do with thread he started (I think it's related with epub formatting and his ereader device). Beside that, yes, pdf is the most common format that will show up when you search, but epub and some chm format is also out there in the darknet. And according to your thread title which suggest that drm is useless because O'Reilly books never appear in ebook piracy circles, I don't think that proves it at all. I think that (and like many people here who have same opinion) when ebook is reasonably priced, have good quality and formatting, no stupid geographic restriction, and convenienced to purchased, people will eventually buy it in legit way, rather than have to go through the hoops of finding pirated ebook. That way, drm will be useless because it just give an unnecessary inconvenience

08-08-2010, 05:49 PM	#15
pwalker8 Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,196 Karma: 70314280 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Device: iPad Pro, iPad mini, Kobo Aura, Amazon paperwhite, Sony PRS-T2	The PDF versions of O'Reilly's ebooks have your name embedded on each page to discourage people from making them available to other people. That's probably why most of the O'Reilly books you see on the darknets are scanned books rather than copied ebooks (note, I haven't checked myself, just going by what a previous poster says). I do have a number of O'Reilly books, so I really can't imagine someone putting such a PDF up for everyone to access.

Advert

Advert