The last epub holdouts

AprilHare · 08-15-2010, 01:56 AM

When will Amazon realize that their "monopoly" on ebooks through their lack of adoption of epub will only bring them a bad outcome in the long term?

djpyle · 08-15-2010, 02:43 AM

I don't know if they'll do away with their azw format, but I'd guess that the Kindle will eventually support epub files.

luqmaninbmore · 08-15-2010, 05:21 AM

Evidence that it will harm them in the long term? And why on earth should they pay adobe to licence their drm? There would be little point in supporting drm free epub because virtually every book available in that format is available in mobipocket ap well.

K-Thom · 08-15-2010, 06:42 AM

Which bad outcome? None of the existing ePub reading devices really did hurt Amazon - and we're talking about players like B&N or Sony. The iPad? Doesn't seem to hurt Amazon eBooks sales, as they stated.

There's a "Kindle for iPhone / iPad / PC / Mac / Blackberry / Android" software, and this dual strategy of a closed system for their reading device and a widespread system for their reading application seems to work quite fine.

So why should Amazon give up a lucrative market they control by owning the format, azw and respectively prc? They'd lose more than they'd win.

And be assured that Amazon will switch it's strategy as soon as Bezos thinks it's time for adopting ePub.

Dave_S · 08-15-2010, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AprilHare

When will Amazon realize that their "monopoly" on ebooks through their lack of adoption of epub will only bring them a bad outcome in the long term?

I wonder why they would would want to relinquish control of their own DRM "monopoly" to be at the mercy of Adobe's DRM "monopoly"?

Dave Berk · 08-15-2010, 09:34 AM

I'd be happy with Amazon just adding support for DRMless ePubs.

Jack Tingle · 08-15-2010, 03:49 PM

OBTW, it's "sewn up". If you sow up, the seeds just fall down anyway.

Regards,
Jack Tingle

alecE · 08-15-2010, 04:12 PM

I'm probably suffering from incurable optimism, but I voted for them seeing the light one day - I'm relieved however that no specific timescale is implied other than between this moment and the end of the universe :-)

etienne66 · 08-15-2010, 05:41 PM

I doubt Amazon would ever license the Adobe DRM, but I don't see why they wouldn't wrap an epub in their own DRM, Apple did. At least then the publishing houses could use the same file for most of the distributors and it supports more formatting options like including font files and having text wrap around images.

Now if the IDPF will hurry up and ratify a 3.0 version of epub.

Etienne66

tovare · 08-15-2010, 07:23 PM

I bet amazon is closer to this decision than some people might think.

With the migration to webkit a lot of the code they need for ePuB support is ready in Kindle 3. The tools available for ePuB and SVG creation has also advanced significantly.

IMHO Bezos's comment on the lack of support for the ePub format to USA Today means just what he says and nothing more than that. It's just a statement on the NOW.

Btw. It's about a year since Sony announced that they were going ePUB all the way

Also check out the recent entries:
http://www.idpf.org/membership/currentmembers.asp

fjtorres · 08-15-2010, 09:50 PM

Sewn up is too strong a term.
More accurately, they are doing fine without it and are likely to continue doing fine without it for the next few years.

And if they ever see a need for ePub, they'll probably do what B&N and Apple did and wrap it in their own DRM. It'l be one cold day in (you know where) when Amazon caves in to Adobe's monopoly.

(Don't see what the ADEPT infatuation is all about; lock-in to Adobe is no better than lock-in to Amazon.)

simplyparticular · 08-15-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

And if they ever see a need for ePub, they'll probably do what B&N and Apple did and wrap it in their own DRM. It'l be one cold day in (you know where) when Amazon caves in to Adobe's monopoly.

(Don't see what the ADEPT infatuation is all about; lock-in to Adobe is no better than lock-in to Amazon.)

I don't see Amazon bothering to change formats with their DRM when they already have so many books in Mobi. The only thing that would force that would be something like the Agency 5 saying they are tired of outputting so many formats and forcing everyone to ePub.

I don't think people worship ADEPT so much as OverDrive supports it, and people want library books. Which is why I don't see Kindle supporting ePub or ADEPT. There is not enough gain in Kindle device sales for Amazon to build in supporting library books.

So thank you Nook and Sony for doing so.

kjk · 08-15-2010, 11:30 PM

DRM'ed ePub would basically be "Kindle" format-Amazon won't adopt someone else's DRM.

Non DRM'ed ePub...I'm curious, outside of the relatively small market of people here liberating their various formats to ePub, what is the market for non-DRM'ed ePub format? Gutenberg, etc. all support .mobi already.

I do like etienne66's point that one format, pre-DRMed, might make life easier/more consistent for publishers, regardless of what DRM they add on afterwards.

But for general users? I'm pretty impressed at how skillfully Amazon has handled the whole DRM/proprietary format issue-better than any other company I can think of. Putting a free Kindle app on computers, phones, and tablets is a master stroke-and changes the conversation.

tovare · 08-16-2010, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjk

... Non DRM'ed ePub...I'm curious, outside of the relatively small market of people here liberating their various formats to ePub, what is the market for non-DRM'ed ePub format? Gutenberg, etc. all support .mobi already.
...

Good question,

It's will be interresting to see if ePub will the new mp3 in the minds of consumers, and there are some things that point in that direction such as:

Free software such as Sigil (Better tools)
Estabilst powerhouses in publishing software such as Adobe.(Better tools)
Forces behind ePub (Google, Microsoft, Adobe, Apple etc.)
Library books.
What's so different about books which makes DRM suddenly acceptable? (More acceptable than on Music, Video etc). Is there a looming backlash for DRM when eBooks hit critical mass?

Amazon does provide automated converson, but history shows us that it doesn't allways work out as an acceptable alternative to consumers. Sony had a hard time selling devices that didn't support mp3 and almost ruined their excellent Walkman brand resisting the consumer trend.

Ben Thornton · 08-16-2010, 07:58 AM

The situation with ebooks is different to music, I think, because people entered the mp3 era with a lot of digital content already on CDs which they could convert. CDs were also sold in parallel. So, in that case, DRM was a limitation only on some of their music purchased in a certain way, which was a pain in the neck and people didn't have to stand for it (you just buy the CD and rip it).

With books, people accept that they can't transfer their DTBs into ereaders, although many will feel that they have a right to that content having once paid for it. So, there isn't the same comparison between existing content transferred to the device and new content.

Personally, it looks to me that there is much more support for, and access to content, with Kindle (and I am not yet a Kindle user, so we'll see what I think in a couple of months!).

I don't know how it will all pan out, of course - but ebooks are not in the same situation as music.

View Poll Results: Will Amazon ever wake up and include EPUB support?
Yes; they'll see the light one day	51	28.49%
No; they've got the game sown up and they know it	128	71.51%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

08-15-2010, 01:56 AM	#1
AprilHare Wizard Posts: 2,981 Karma: 11862367 Join Date: Apr 2008 Device: Sony Reader PRS-T2	The last epub holdouts When will Amazon realize that their "monopoly" on ebooks through their lack of adoption of epub will only bring them a bad outcome in the long term?

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08-15-2010, 02:43 AM	#2
djpyle Writer Posts: 70 Karma: 124160 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Springfield, MO Device: Oasis, Paperwhite 1, iPhone 6+	I don't know if they'll do away with their azw format, but I'd guess that the Kindle will eventually support epub files.

08-15-2010, 05:21 AM	#3
luqmaninbmore Da'i Posts: 1,144 Karma: 1217499 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Baltimore Device: Toshiba Thrive, Kobo Touch, Kindle 1, Aluratek Libre, T-Mobile Comet	Evidence that it will harm them in the long term? And why on earth should they pay adobe to licence their drm? There would be little point in supporting drm free epub because virtually every book available in that format is available in mobipocket ap well.

08-15-2010, 06:42 AM	#4
K-Thom The one and only Posts: 3,302 Karma: 535819 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Berlin, Germany Device: yup!	Which bad outcome? None of the existing ePub reading devices really did hurt Amazon - and we're talking about players like B&N or Sony. The iPad? Doesn't seem to hurt Amazon eBooks sales, as they stated. There's a "Kindle for iPhone / iPad / PC / Mac / Blackberry / Android" software, and this dual strategy of a closed system for their reading device and a widespread system for their reading application seems to work quite fine. So why should Amazon give up a lucrative market they control by owning the format, azw and respectively prc? They'd lose more than they'd win. And be assured that Amazon will switch it's strategy as soon as Bezos thinks it's time for adopting ePub.

08-15-2010, 09:34 AM	#6
Dave Berk Fanatic Posts: 574 Karma: 138556 Join Date: May 2006 Device: PRS505	I'd be happy with Amazon just adding support for DRMless ePubs.

08-15-2010, 03:49 PM	#7
Jack Tingle Punctuation Fetishist Posts: 557 Karma: 1070000 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: The Bluest Commonwealth In East America Device: Kindle PW, Nexus 7 (2013), Galaxy S5 phone, Galaxy Tab 4 8.0	OBTW, it's "sewn up". If you sow up, the seeds just fall down anyway. Regards, Jack Tingle

08-15-2010, 04:12 PM	#8
alecE Evangelist Posts: 412 Karma: 546196 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK canal boat Device: sony prs505, prs650, kobo Glo HD liseuses	I'm probably suffering from incurable optimism, but I voted for them seeing the light one day - I'm relieved however that no specific timescale is implied other than between this moment and the end of the universe :-)

08-15-2010, 05:41 PM	#9
etienne66 Groupie Posts: 185 Karma: 9832 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Texas, US Device: Kindle 2, PRS-600 Black, PRS-650 Red, Adam w/ Pixel Qi(pre-ordered)	I doubt Amazon would ever license the Adobe DRM, but I don't see why they wouldn't wrap an epub in their own DRM, Apple did. At least then the publishing houses could use the same file for most of the distributors and it supports more formatting options like including font files and having text wrap around images. Now if the IDPF will hurry up and ratify a 3.0 version of epub. Etienne66

08-15-2010, 07:23 PM	#10
tovare Addict Posts: 221 Karma: 1133312 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Oslo/Norway Device: PRS-600, Kindle kb Wifi, new Kindle NT, PW2, Kindle Oasis	I bet amazon is closer to this decision than some people might think. With the migration to webkit a lot of the code they need for ePuB support is ready in Kindle 3. The tools available for ePuB and SVG creation has also advanced significantly. IMHO Bezos's comment on the lack of support for the ePub format to USA Today means just what he says and nothing more than that. It's just a statement on the NOW. Btw. It's about a year since Sony announced that they were going ePUB all the way Also check out the recent entries: http://www.idpf.org/membership/currentmembers.asp

08-15-2010, 09:50 PM	#11
fjtorres Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,732 Karma: 128354696 Join Date: May 2009 Location: 26 kly from Sgr A* Device: T100TA,PW2,PRS-T1,KT,FireHD 8.9,K2, PB360,BeBook One,Axim51v,TC1000	Sewn up is too strong a term. More accurately, they are doing fine without it and are likely to continue doing fine without it for the next few years. And if they ever see a need for ePub, they'll probably do what B&N and Apple did and wrap it in their own DRM. It'l be one cold day in (you know where) when Amazon caves in to Adobe's monopoly. (Don't see what the ADEPT infatuation is all about; lock-in to Adobe is no better than lock-in to Amazon.)

08-15-2010, 11:30 PM	#13
kjk . Posts: 3,408 Karma: 5647231 Join Date: Oct 2008 Device: never enough	DRM'ed ePub would basically be "Kindle" format-Amazon won't adopt someone else's DRM. Non DRM'ed ePub...I'm curious, outside of the relatively small market of people here liberating their various formats to ePub, what is the market for non-DRM'ed ePub format? Gutenberg, etc. all support .mobi already. I do like etienne66's point that one format, pre-DRMed, might make life easier/more consistent for publishers, regardless of what DRM they add on afterwards. But for general users? I'm pretty impressed at how skillfully Amazon has handled the whole DRM/proprietary format issue-better than any other company I can think of. Putting a free Kindle app on computers, phones, and tablets is a master stroke-and changes the conversation.

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08-16-2010, 07:58 AM	#15
Ben Thornton Guru Posts: 900 Karma: 779635 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle 3, iPad 2 (but not for e-books)	The situation with ebooks is different to music, I think, because people entered the mp3 era with a lot of digital content already on CDs which they could convert. CDs were also sold in parallel. So, in that case, DRM was a limitation only on some of their music purchased in a certain way, which was a pain in the neck and people didn't have to stand for it (you just buy the CD and rip it). With books, people accept that they can't transfer their DTBs into ereaders, although many will feel that they have a right to that content having once paid for it. So, there isn't the same comparison between existing content transferred to the device and new content. Personally, it looks to me that there is much more support for, and access to content, with Kindle (and I am not yet a Kindle user, so we'll see what I think in a couple of months!). I don't know how it will all pan out, of course - but ebooks are not in the same situation as music.