Where Have All the Barnstormers Gone

davidspitzer · 09-29-2009, 03:11 AM

I was participating quite vigorously in a thread about the review Princeton gave the Kindle DX trial (bad) - and I was absolutely floored at how many people on a site, geared towards mobile reading platforms, really did not seem to have much heart when it came to supporting and promoting the Ebook platform and in a lot of cases downright hated it

please read the whole thread to get the flavor

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57763

but this was my last exchange and to me it was disappointing -

I posted this in a new thread because I am curious - do the majority of you really feel this way?

=========================
Originally Posted by LDBoblo
I'd actually prefer if paper producers would stop using their own benign, sustainable forests of bamboo-like trees designed for rapid renewal and would start cutting down some real growth again to improve some of the paper quality. Displace all those silly slash/burners in Africa and South America who are just putting all that good wood to waste. Of course, it'd be nice to make paper out of some other materials too, since some varieties are quite superior to wood-based in terms of durability.

As far as ebooks...the devices suck. They are not good enough for anything outside of a very narrow window of usage. The technology needs to fundamentally improve before feasibility for mass adoption comes into play. There is no need, except when desperate, to adapt to the inferior nature of these devices unless their only 2 advantages are absolutely essential (space conservation, keyword search). I will take a widescreen high-resolution notebook with PDFs long long before I will even consider using any of the e-ink garbage for anything remotely resembling scholarly research. Having to find a power outlet and deal with a backlit LCD (Heaven forbid! A superior screen technology for small text!) are worthwhile for the incredibly massive step up in usability.

Adaptation is necessary, but adaptation to superior methodology and superior technology. The current crop of E-ink readers qualifies as neither. Most of us here are already early adopters in some way; that does not mean we should be in any way contented to reduce our standards and shrug it off with "well we have to adapt!" That's nothing more than a cop-out.

I will use just about anything OTHER than an ebook reader for research. I've had to do research working from bamboo slat scrolls, and I find those to be a superior technology to ebook readers at the moment. In another few generations of device, some of the technological kinks should be ironed out (hopefully not "adapted to" by apologists)...but I'm not going to waste my money on it now.

My. Response
===========
but who is to drive improvements other than us? The manufacturers and publishers are not going to expend any effort unless they see commitment. Sitting back and complaining will not achieve this goal.

Adopting and using is not settling - the first men and woman who flew biplanes did it with zeal and excitement because they knew that the only way to drive improvement was with skin in the game. They did not sit on the sidelines and complain that the airframe was to weak and that that planes sucked because they were laden with flaws; no they jumped in and drove the improvements literally by sheer will and commitment

Those people did not compromise their standards and neither do we by trying to leverage this technology, even if it does have flaws. If you truly believe in its potential then you are either a bystander or flyer - I wish to be a flyer and I think the only way we are going to see quantum changes for the better is if we are willing to take some pain, work through the issues and show the hardware producers that it can work and that we want them to put more time, energy and money into this field.

Yes it's easier to read a paperbound academic book, yes its easier to print out a paper and read it rather then copy it to my ebook reader, but I do it because thats what we should be doing and like the early aviators, the fact that the technology is lacking in many ways will not detract me from doing it

I must admit I am a little shocked and disappointed at the attitude displayed here and I'll be honest I hope you are in the minority, because if we, as early adopters and supposed pundents of this this technology can not rally support among our own ranks how do we expect others to do so. It should come as no surprise when we hear negative reports like the one from Princeton.

Is this the best enthusiasm we can muster? Has our attention span so waned nowadays that we are unwilling to work through any adversity? Have we degenerated to only gravitating towards instant gratification pursuing only the path of least resistance?

Where have all the barnstormers gone?

LDBoblo · 09-29-2009, 03:49 AM

Might want to edit my portion...there's no way I'd say the last three sentences you attributed to me

Seventh Son · 09-29-2009, 04:02 AM

To each his own. Reading from back-lit LCD produces too much eye strain for me so it's in no way superior. And I am yet to see a notebook with a LCD that would be readable under direct sunlight. Also it's not always possible to find a power outlet on long transfers in the airports. And lugging notebooks with power adapters isn't my idea of fun either. So for having a read on the go current generation of eReaders is ideal for me.
As for research and work, than yes - having a few large screens with huge resolutions is very helpful. But then again notebooks instantly fail here.

Superlucky · 09-29-2009, 05:00 AM

I couldn't disagree more with LDBoblo. I really love being able to carry around thousands of books in my small backpack. I love that I can have a gigantic library and still live in an apartment. I also love the access to thousands of free public domain books and the approximately $50 worth of free magazines and newspapers I get every month using calibre's fetch news feature. $10 best-sellers that are only out in hard-back aren't bad either.

As for the assertion that a back-lit LCD screen is an improvement over e-ink, I don't buy it for a second. There's a reason people print large documents out to read them: reading on an LCD screen hurts your eyes. Besides, I'm not going to curl up on the couch, relax at the beach, prop up under a tree or sit in the bathtub with a laptop.

Everyone who looks at my Reader (including myself) thinks that the e-ink looks exactly like a printed page. I still can't get over how good it looks. I easily read twice as much since I got my device. I take it everywhere I go and use it every single day. The only way I will ever buy another p-book is if I'm just dying to read something that I can't get in ebook format.

HansTWN · 09-29-2009, 05:27 AM

LDBoblo seems to only enjoy beautifully typeset books and doesn't read a book from beginning to end but rather jumps around. Ebook readers obviously are not for him. For regular reading I enjoy my reader more than paperbacks, and my eyes never get tired, even after many hours. For reference books, technical texts, and for documents with many pictures or diagrams I still use hard cover books.

And with free classics the reader has long since paid for itself.

LDBoblo · 09-29-2009, 06:15 AM

It'd be nice if everyone would bear in mind this is being stripped of context, which was explicitly about scholarly research purposes. That's what my post was about, that's what the thread was about, and now it's being pulled into a completely different context.

I use my reader for novels, but would not dream of using it for anything academic, which most certainly does involve dynamic reading for many people.

stustaff · 09-29-2009, 06:21 AM

Pulling one persons comments out of context and out of a thread is a little unfair and pointless. seems like a bit of a personal attack?

igorsk · 09-29-2009, 06:23 AM

What exactly is a "barnstormer"?

LDBoblo · 09-29-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seventh Son

As for research and work, than yes - having a few large screens with huge resolutions is very helpful. But then again notebooks instantly fail here.

My last notebook, netbook excepted, was 1600x1200 and 15 inches...not ideal mind you, but combined with the fact that the contrast allowed reasonably small text to be diplayed, and that it was instantaneous and allowed tabbing and pretty instant input, searching, fast flipping through pdfs, quick web access for informal peripheral references, the ability to print for detailed marking when hooked up to a network printer, etc etc etc. It was a far better research tool than any current e-ink device can be.

Of course, a big widescreen desktop display is much better since I can view multiple pages in a single pane, along with all the other tabbing benefits and notation and stuff. A good notebook would do in a pinch, and even a netbook COULD be usable, if a bit limited. Certainly a hell of a lot better for Chinese reading than any of the ebook reader devices.

I hate reading novels on my desktop, and rather don't mind them on my prs-505. But novels are not what I meant when I was referring to scholarly research (even though I was a literature student).

Lemurion · 09-29-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by igorsk

What exactly is a "barnstormer"?

They were demobilized WWI pilots who traveled the US making a living giving flying demonstrations. They took old war-surplus trainers and crossed the country, giving people rides, taking up wing-walking and generally showing off new technology. For many people they were their first exposure to even the idea of flight.

Now the term is often used to refer to pioneers of technology - especially ones who do their own support.

igorsk · 09-29-2009, 10:37 AM

Thanks for the explanation!

ahi · 09-29-2009, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HansTWN

LDBoblo seems to only enjoy beautifully typeset books and doesn't read a book from beginning to end but rather jumps around. Ebook readers obviously are not for him.

Why is it obvious that eBook readers are not for him? Isn't the more obvious conclusion that eBooks have some ways to go before they become an equal-or-better value alternative to paper books?

- Ahi

Lemurion · 09-29-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ahi

Why is it obvious that eBook readers are not for him? Isn't the more obvious conclusion that eBooks have some ways to go before they become an equal-or-better value alternative to paper books?

- Ahi

I will completely agree that an eBook has less value than a decent hardcover. My Chicago Manual of Style was $55, and I have hardcover comic collections that were $75. I wouldn't pay anything like that for an eBook - but these are all very well-made high quality books and worth the money.

Having said that: before I started reading eBooks, much of my book budget went to mass-market paperback fiction, and I find eBooks to be a much better value proposition than mass-market paperbacks. E-ink isn't that much worse to my eyes - and the ability to resize the font depending on where I'm reading makes a huge difference to me - as does the ability to keep the whole series on the Reader.

(I know most people don't worry too much about resizing - and hence reflow - but I have progressive lenses, and when I'm lying in bed I'm reading through a different band than when I'm sitting in my chair. It's one of the reasons I started reading much less on paper before I went to eBooks.)

All books are not created equal - and a value proposition for one kind of book (and one reader) may not be the same for another.

ahi · 09-29-2009, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lemurion

I will completely agree that an eBook has less value than a decent hardcover. My Chicago Manual of Style was $55, and I have hardcover comic collections that were $75. I wouldn't pay anything like that for an eBook - but these are all very well-made high quality books and worth the money.

Having said that: before I started reading eBooks, much of my book budget went to mass-market paperback fiction, and I find eBooks to be a much better value proposition than mass-market paperbacks. E-ink isn't that much worse to my eyes - and the ability to resize the font depending on where I'm reading makes a huge difference to me - as does the ability to keep the whole series on the Reader.

(I know most people don't worry too much about resizing - and hence reflow - but I have progressive lenses, and when I'm lying in bed I'm reading through a different band than when I'm sitting in my chair. It's one of the reasons I started reading much less on paper before I went to eBooks.)

All books are not created equal - and a value proposition for one kind of book (and one reader) may not be the same for another.

I understand that, Lemurion. I just do not see a genuine technological or business necessity for eBooks to fail to offer most of the benefits of regular books, while still having their own unique benefits (different font sizes, no per-page mass/volume, et cetera)... whereas, some days, it seems everyone else is convinced that font-resizing in and of itself is worth every conceivable (but, I am quite certain, entirely needless) sacrifice.

- Ahi

davidspitzer · 09-29-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stustaff

Pulling one persons comments out of context and out of a thread is a little unfair and pointless. seems like a bit of a personal attack?

I posted the original thread and urged everyone to read it. Far from an attack I am trying to figure out if I am alone and deluded in my support for ebooks and my premise that the only way to drive change is to adopt now and work through the issues

09-29-2009, 03:11 AM	#1
davidspitzer So Many Words to Read! Posts: 411 Karma: 125665 Join Date: Aug 2006 Device: Kindle	Where Have All the Barnstormers Gone I was participating quite vigorously in a thread about the review Princeton gave the Kindle DX trial (bad) - and I was absolutely floored at how many people on a site, geared towards mobile reading platforms, really did not seem to have much heart when it came to supporting and promoting the Ebook platform and in a lot of cases downright hated it please read the whole thread to get the flavor https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57763 but this was my last exchange and to me it was disappointing - I posted this in a new thread because I am curious - do the majority of you really feel this way? ========================= Originally Posted by LDBoblo I'd actually prefer if paper producers would stop using their own benign, sustainable forests of bamboo-like trees designed for rapid renewal and would start cutting down some real growth again to improve some of the paper quality. Displace all those silly slash/burners in Africa and South America who are just putting all that good wood to waste. Of course, it'd be nice to make paper out of some other materials too, since some varieties are quite superior to wood-based in terms of durability. As far as ebooks...the devices suck. They are not good enough for anything outside of a very narrow window of usage. The technology needs to fundamentally improve before feasibility for mass adoption comes into play. There is no need, except when desperate, to adapt to the inferior nature of these devices unless their only 2 advantages are absolutely essential (space conservation, keyword search). I will take a widescreen high-resolution notebook with PDFs long long before I will even consider using any of the e-ink garbage for anything remotely resembling scholarly research. Having to find a power outlet and deal with a backlit LCD (Heaven forbid! A superior screen technology for small text!) are worthwhile for the incredibly massive step up in usability. Adaptation is necessary, but adaptation to superior methodology and superior technology. The current crop of E-ink readers qualifies as neither. Most of us here are already early adopters in some way; that does not mean we should be in any way contented to reduce our standards and shrug it off with "well we have to adapt!" That's nothing more than a cop-out. I will use just about anything OTHER than an ebook reader for research. I've had to do research working from bamboo slat scrolls, and I find those to be a superior technology to ebook readers at the moment. In another few generations of device, some of the technological kinks should be ironed out (hopefully not "adapted to" by apologists)...but I'm not going to waste my money on it now. My. Response =========== but who is to drive improvements other than us? The manufacturers and publishers are not going to expend any effort unless they see commitment. Sitting back and complaining will not achieve this goal. Adopting and using is not settling - the first men and woman who flew biplanes did it with zeal and excitement because they knew that the only way to drive improvement was with skin in the game. They did not sit on the sidelines and complain that the airframe was to weak and that that planes sucked because they were laden with flaws; no they jumped in and drove the improvements literally by sheer will and commitment Those people did not compromise their standards and neither do we by trying to leverage this technology, even if it does have flaws. If you truly believe in its potential then you are either a bystander or flyer - I wish to be a flyer and I think the only way we are going to see quantum changes for the better is if we are willing to take some pain, work through the issues and show the hardware producers that it can work and that we want them to put more time, energy and money into this field. Yes it's easier to read a paperbound academic book, yes its easier to print out a paper and read it rather then copy it to my ebook reader, but I do it because thats what we should be doing and like the early aviators, the fact that the technology is lacking in many ways will not detract me from doing it I must admit I am a little shocked and disappointed at the attitude displayed here and I'll be honest I hope you are in the minority, because if we, as early adopters and supposed pundents of this this technology can not rally support among our own ranks how do we expect others to do so. It should come as no surprise when we hear negative reports like the one from Princeton. Is this the best enthusiasm we can muster? Has our attention span so waned nowadays that we are unwilling to work through any adversity? Have we degenerated to only gravitating towards instant gratification pursuing only the path of least resistance? Where have all the barnstormers gone? Last edited by davidspitzer; 09-29-2009 at 01:23 PM.

09-29-2009, 03:49 AM	#2
LDBoblo Wizard Posts: 1,385 Karma: 16056 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Asia Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Sony PRS-505	Might want to edit my portion...there's no way I'd say the last three sentences you attributed to me Last edited by LDBoblo; 09-29-2009 at 03:50 AM. Reason: self-correction :D

09-29-2009, 04:02 AM	#3
Seventh Son lurker Posts: 123 Karma: 356 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: EU Device: I should probably stop	To each his own. Reading from back-lit LCD produces too much eye strain for me so it's in no way superior. And I am yet to see a notebook with a LCD that would be readable under direct sunlight. Also it's not always possible to find a power outlet on long transfers in the airports. And lugging notebooks with power adapters isn't my idea of fun either. So for having a read on the go current generation of eReaders is ideal for me. As for research and work, than yes - having a few large screens with huge resolutions is very helpful. But then again notebooks instantly fail here. Last edited by Seventh Son; 09-29-2009 at 04:05 AM.

09-29-2009, 05:00 AM	#4
Superlucky Fanatic Posts: 581 Karma: 5952 Join Date: Aug 2009 Device: PRS-505, PRS-350	I couldn't disagree more with LDBoblo. I really love being able to carry around thousands of books in my small backpack. I love that I can have a gigantic library and still live in an apartment. I also love the access to thousands of free public domain books and the approximately $50 worth of free magazines and newspapers I get every month using calibre's fetch news feature. $10 best-sellers that are only out in hard-back aren't bad either. As for the assertion that a back-lit LCD screen is an improvement over e-ink, I don't buy it for a second. There's a reason people print large documents out to read them: reading on an LCD screen hurts your eyes. Besides, I'm not going to curl up on the couch, relax at the beach, prop up under a tree or sit in the bathtub with a laptop. Everyone who looks at my Reader (including myself) thinks that the e-ink looks exactly like a printed page. I still can't get over how good it looks. I easily read twice as much since I got my device. I take it everywhere I go and use it every single day. The only way I will ever buy another p-book is if I'm just dying to read something that I can't get in ebook format.

09-29-2009, 05:27 AM	#5
HansTWN Wizard Posts: 4,538 Karma: 264065402 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Taiwan Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD	LDBoblo seems to only enjoy beautifully typeset books and doesn't read a book from beginning to end but rather jumps around. Ebook readers obviously are not for him. For regular reading I enjoy my reader more than paperbacks, and my eyes never get tired, even after many hours. For reference books, technical texts, and for documents with many pictures or diagrams I still use hard cover books. And with free classics the reader has long since paid for itself.

09-29-2009, 06:15 AM	#6
LDBoblo Wizard Posts: 1,385 Karma: 16056 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Asia Device: Kindle 3 WiFi, Sony PRS-505	It'd be nice if everyone would bear in mind this is being stripped of context, which was explicitly about scholarly research purposes. That's what my post was about, that's what the thread was about, and now it's being pulled into a completely different context. I use my reader for novels, but would not dream of using it for anything academic, which most certainly does involve dynamic reading for many people.

09-29-2009, 06:21 AM	#7
stustaff Wizard Posts: 1,055 Karma: 2110 Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Derbyshire UK Device: sony reader PRS505 and 600	Pulling one persons comments out of context and out of a thread is a little unfair and pointless. seems like a bit of a personal attack?

09-29-2009, 06:23 AM	#8
igorsk Wizard Posts: 3,442 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belgium Device: PRS-500/505/700, Kindle, Cybook Gen3, Words Gear	What exactly is a "barnstormer"?

09-29-2009, 10:37 AM	#11
igorsk Wizard Posts: 3,442 Karma: 300001 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Belgium Device: PRS-500/505/700, Kindle, Cybook Gen3, Words Gear	Thanks for the explanation!

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