7"+ upgrade from Kindle PW3, but what?

[sniglom]

Hello, I'm new here

I've been using a Kindle Paperwhite 3 for a couple of years now and I'm thinking about upgrading it.

I'm satisfied with the contrast, sharpness and uniformity of the display of the PW3. I also think the material is easy to hold and the build quality is good enough. A worse display or build quality would be annoying.

What I want in a new device:
A bigger display. Perhaps 7-8", I don't have anything to compare to.
Nice to have: physical buttons and/or warm backlight.

How I use the Kindle:
*I sideload epub/mobi/azw3 books using calibre and have no issues with converting. No PDFs, no manga, no audiobooks. Plain reading.

* I like that the interface is uncluttered when I read. Only thing I use is "time left in chapter"

*I read in landscape mode, but this is probably because I like to have longer rows on a small device, rather than using a very small font.

*Customization wise, I don't do much. Reduced line spacing and margins.

*The email functionality in the kindle is nice, but I have no problem with connecting it to my computer.


What device to choose?
The new paperwhite is too similar at 6", bluish backlight and no buttons.

The Kindle Oasis is a bit pricy at 300 euros, but if it's awesome, maybe it's the right device.

Thus, I looked at a few alternatives;
Kobo Libra H2O, 7", €140
PocketBook InkPad 3, 7.8", €180
Kobo Forma, 8", €245
Maybe there's something more I should check out?

I have no idea how these compare quality wise. Since I don't use much functionality, I care about that the screen quality is good, the backlight is uniform and that the device feels somewhat quick.

The pocketbook seems to be good value, at least for its screen size. The white Kobo has a nice look and the case with a builtin stand seems nice. But I have no idea whether Kobo or Pocketbook is to prefer in hardware quality or software quality.

[Quoth]

I find the Libra OK. I've used the Original H2O, Kindle PW2, PW3, Basic, PW4, Keyboard and DXG.
I've found no need to patch/customise. I did jailbreak the DXG so as to add sleep covers. I tried the JB system font, which is nicer than stock, but reverted it as I check old Mobi on it.

[JSWolf]

Go for the Kobo Libra H2O. I think you will really like it.

[sniglom]

So I bought the Libra and the Forma from two different companies with good return policies.
What I think about the devices? Sadly, I'm not very impressed.

Kobo Libra:
* Uniformity of the backlight is good. I like that you can switch between warm and cool light.

* 7" wasn't enough of an upgrade from 6", especially since the Libra isn't very nice to hold in landscape mode. Thus I have longer line lenght on my old PW3. At this size I appreciate line length over page length.

* The hard plastic material isn't as nice to hold as the rubbery surface on my PW3.

* The two front buttons feel a bit different and sound different as well. Both of them are too loud and clicky for my taste.

* The placement of the sleep button is a bit weird, since it's hard to reach depending on how you hold the device.

* Why can't I configure the buttons so that UP means next in portrait mode and right means next in landscape mode? Annoying.

* Why can't I override the line spacing of a book if it's predefined in the epub? Annoying.

* The touch is generally worse. Both in sensitivity and speed. Marking words is clunkier and I often manage to accidentally switch page. Trying to press a footnote was so bad that I had to check on my kindle that the footnote actually was a link before going back and try a few more times. Yes, it was that bad. I managed to switch page, mark the asterisk of the footnote but not click it. Using the slider for changing brightness is also finicky and often switches page instead.
I'm not a novice at using touch devices. I don't have these or similar issues when using my PW3. Nor have I similar issues of accidental inputs using my smartphone or laptop touchpad.

* The dictionary is clearly worse. I noticed this already for the first 5 words I needed to lookup.

* Wake/Sleep is slower. On my first try to wake the device, I thought the click didn't register and pressed again, just to see the device wake up and go back to sleep again. This has never happened to me for the 5 years with the PW3.

* Overall the interface feels a bit less polished. A good example is the small brightness slider, that is slower, harder to use due to size and seems to have a less than optimal mapping between percentage and actual light flow.

Kobo Forma
* 8" is a really nice step up from 6". This size is great, for the first time I enjoy reading in portrait mode.

* The front has a nice rubbery feel, but the back still has this hard plastic.

* The front buttons has the same issues as the Libra. Different sound/feel and too loud clicks.

* The sleep button has a better placement on this unit. But mine isn't tactile. I can't feel whether it's been pressed or not. I don't know wether this is an issue with quality control or bad design, but I don't like it.

* My screen has issues. Using the white leds, it's a bluish line along the same edge as where the buttons are. I guess I lost the panel lottery:
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=312149

*The corners on that edge have issues producing blacks. Looking at the device from just the slightest angle, the corners glow white when they should be black. This screen should not have passed quality control. Turning on the yellow light makes uniformity and corner issues better, but not good.

Verdict?
I'm sad to say this, but I don't think the Libra is much of an upgrade to the reading experience of my PW3.

The Forma has a really nice screen size, but I have to return the unit due to the quality issues with mine. It's just too noticeable on this unit.

I now know that there's no point for me in going for a Kindle Oasis. 7" isn't enough of an upgrade to spend that money.

I will try the pocketbook inkpad 3 as well, but I don't hold my hopes high.

[sniglom]

Couldn't edit my post, but I had much less issues clicking footnotes with the Forma. Although, I find the footnote interface worse on the Kobos than the Kindle.

[haydnfan]

Why aren't you considering the Oasis 3? It has superior light uniformity to what you were looking at and is a 7 inch ereader.

FYI you needed more time with the Kobo devices before you made a judgment. You CAN change the button layout. Changing the light level is easy and responsive, you just swipe up/down on the left (no need to bring up a menu) until it is just right. I've had no problems using either one.

[JSWolf]

@sniglom, the power button placement is irrelevant as is the feel of the plastic because you should be used a sleep cover which then eliminates these issues and the sleep cover makes the Libra much nicer to hold.

Also, the larger screen (even 7") is nicer then a 6" screen. I'm using a Kobo Aura H2O and it's a 6.8" screen and there is no way I would go back to reading with a 6" screen full time.

As for ePub, if it has DRM, remove the DRM. Load the ePub in the editor and search/replace out line-height and problem solved.

[ps67]

@sniglom; You ask: * Why can't I override the line spacing of a book if it's predefined in the epub? Annoying.

Yes it is annoying but there is a patch for that.

But, of course, if You are not confortable with a Kobo nobody can say to You what You should do.

I bought a KP3 in february 2017 and in July 2018 I bought a Kobo Aura One. I wanted a larger screen and KA1 was the best option. I took some time to be used with Kobo but now I prefer it respect to a Kindle. But the KP3 is more reactive, it is true. Again: preferences are pretty personal.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ps67

@sniglom; You ask: * Why can't I override the line spacing of a book if it's predefined in the epub? Annoying.

Yes it is annoying but there is a patch for that.

But, of course, if You are not confortable with a Kobo nobody can say to You what You should do.

I bought a KP3 in february 2017 and in July 2018 I bought a Kobo Aura One. I wanted a larger screen and KA1 was the best option. I took some time to be used with Kobo but now I prefer it respect to a Kindle. But the KP3 is more reactive, it is true. Again: preferences are pretty personal.

Just a quick note. The abbreviation for the Paperwhite 3 is PW3. Took me some time to get what you meant by KP3.

[sniglom]

Originally Posted by haydnfan

Why aren't you considering the Oasis 3? It has superior light uniformity to what you were looking at and is a 7 inch ereader.

As stated in the first post. The main reason to look at other devices was the price of the Oasis. Where I live (Sweden) it's about 300 euros, while the Libra goes for 140 and the Forma for 245.

That said, I have no light uniformity issues with the 7" Libra, only the 8" Forma.

Originally Posted by haydnfan

FYI you needed more time with the Kobo devices before you made a judgment.

Don't think so, I covered your points in my post. I read the manual as well.

Originally Posted by haydnfan

You CAN change the button layout.

I DID change the layout. What annoys me is that the invert toggle for the buttons changes for all orientations.
Default: down = next page / right = next page.
Invert: Up = next page / left = next page.

I want up = next page / right = next page. But you can't do that.
If you can, I didn't find it in the manual or in the settings.

Originally Posted by haydnfan

Changing the light level is easy and responsive, you just swipe up/down on the left (no need to bring up a menu) until it is just right. I've had no problems using either one.

I addressed both of these issues and the issues I have with both of them.

Sliding on the screen:
The touch sensitivity isn't very good on my device. Whether it's this device in particular or every Libra, I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say it's a combination of higher input lag, worse implementation of touch driver and perhaps not proper touch calibration.

Anyway, sliding along the edge to set brightness tend to give accidental inputs, thus switching the page. The issues I have with touch on this device not limited to the brightness slider, but also when trying to click footnotes or selecting text. For reference I tried clicking a footnote on the Forma and that worked without issues, so maybe it's just a matter of quality control.

Change the brightness from settings.
The issues I have with the slider in the settings was just an example of why I find the software on the Kobo worse overall. The brightness slider is a common option, thus it should be implemented in a good manner, but it isn't. Like most things I found with the Kobo, it's not that it's unusable, it's that it isn't polished.

I do software development and electronics both for work and as a hobby. I care about making interfaces great and properly mapping audio volume to sliders, light flow to sliders and so on. I care about the studies on human computer interaction, such as Fitt's law, when designing interfaces. So when I use the Kobo, I get annoyed. If you don't get annoyed with all the small things, that's good for you. More devices to like and choose from.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

@sniglom, the power button placement is irrelevant as is the feel of the plastic because you should be used a sleep cover which then eliminates these issues and the sleep cover makes the Libra much nicer to hold.

No, my preferences and opinions are not irrelevant for me. They are highly relevant, since it's me using the product.

I usually don't like covers and prefer to use a protective sleeve when the device isn't in use. That said, I actually bought the sleep cover for the Libra, just to try it. I think it makes it worse to hold. I mean, it's nice that it can be used as a stand and that it wakes/sleeps the device, but I prefer to hold the device without it. I didn't write about it, since it's optional to purchase and not a part of the device itself.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Also, the larger screen (even 7") is nicer then a 6" screen. I'm using a Kobo Aura H2O and it's a 6.8" screen and there is no way I would go back to reading with a 6" screen full time.

If you use the devices with the same orientation, there's no argument here. 7" is better than 6".

As I wrote in my first post, I prefer to read in landscape mode on the kindle. I find it nicer to hold that way and at 6", line length is more important to me than page length.

The Libra's shape makes me want to hold it in portrait mode. Doing so gives a bit shorter lines, but of course much longer pages.

So what I realized is this; I want 8" for portrait mode to make sense. For a 7" device to make sense for me, it should be really nice to hold in portrait mode.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

As for ePub, if it has DRM, remove the DRM. Load the ePub in the editor and search/replace out line-height and problem solved.

I don't think there is any DRM in my epub files? Anyway, the issue isn't that it can't be fixed, which I pointed out that I know how to do. It's not that it in itself is a dealbreaker. It's just another annoyance with the software. Something that should be working out of the box, but isn't.

I mean, even if I was a publisher that really cared about line spacing, that's no excuse for the interface to not tell you about what is going on. Why can I move a slider that doesn't do anything? Why won't the software tell me what is going on? It's not like this is the first beta release from Kobo. It's not like this is some obscure setting that 99% of users won't touch.

Again, if you don't get annoyed by what I find to be sloppy software, good for you. It's not like I want to be annoyed by these devices. It's not helping me.

I wanted the "upgrade" from a five year old Kindle to feel like a step forward software wise, but it feels like a regression.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by sniglom

Sliding on the screen:
The touch sensitivity isn't very good on my device. Whether it's this device in particular or every Libra, I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say it's a combination of higher input lag, worse implementation of touch driver and perhaps not proper touch calibration.

Anyway, sliding along the edge to set brightness tend to give accidental inputs, thus switching the page. The issues I have with touch on this device not limited to the brightness slider, but also when trying to click footnotes or selecting text. For reference I tried clicking a footnote on the Forma and that worked without issues, so maybe it's just a matter of quality control.

Given that you are using the buttons for page turns, you could have set swipe to change the page. That would have solved some of your problems with the light.

As I see it, you had some issues with the Libra and chalked them up to how it is instead of coming here to speak of them and see if there are any solutions. You returned the Libra and then came to speak of your problem. That's backwards. You would have found some solutions for some of your problems. But you got rid of the Libra too soon. You didn't give it a fair chance. The thing is with the Kobo firmware is that there are a lot more options and if you are coming from a Kindle, you won't know what options there could be because Kindles don't have nearly the options. Plus, there is patching for the Kobo and that would have solved your line hight issue (for example). This is why you gave up on the Libra way too soon. You didn't give it a fair trial.

[sniglom]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Given that you are using the buttons for page turns, you could have set swipe to change the page. That would have solved some of your problems with the light.

As I tried to explain, it isn't that it's unsolvable problems, it's that I find the level of quality annoying.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

As I see it, you had some issues with the Libra and chalked them up to how it is instead of coming here to speak of them and see if there are any solutions.

That's a misunderstanding. See above.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You returned the Libra and then came to speak of your problem. That's backwards.

I never said that I returned it, because I haven't. Still want to give it a few more days to see if I can like it. So far I don't. The Forma is still here as well. Trying to not get annoyed by the blue glowing band in the screen, but it's still there and it's still annoying.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You would have found some solutions for some of your problems.

Unsolvable problems was never the issue. I want good software quality and I find the Kobo software subpar. It's not whether it can do X or not, it's that I personally don't think it's a smooth and nice to use device.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you got rid of the Libra too soon. You didn't give it a fair chance.

Again, I have no idea why you think this. It's right here.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The thing is with the Kobo firmware is that there are a lot more options and if you are coming from a Kindle, you won't know what options there could be because Kindles don't have nearly the options.

You assume that I didn't read the manual. You assume that I didn't go through the options. For some reason you also assume that having options would change my mind about the software quality in general. All these assumptions are wrong.

The options I wanted, weren't there though.
I like that the Kindle backlight can't be turned off 100%, it's actually a nice feature when you accidentally screw up. No option for that.

I wanted the front buttons to be inverted in portrait mode but not in landscape mode. There's no option for that.

I wanted to actually override line spacing (without hacking the device or the epub), there's no option for that.

As written in my first post, I'm not very interested in a lot of options. I prefer a device that doesn't annoy me, over a device that is overly customizable. For the same exact reason I'm using an iPhone and a Macbook for work, while having a Linux desktop to play around with. It's seldom you get to have lots of options and a great interface, and the Kobo is no exception.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Plus, there is patching for the Kobo and that would have solved your line hight issue (for example). This is why you gave up on the Libra way too soon. You didn't give it a fair trial.

Again, you're wrong. The libra is still here on trial.

It seems you cannot grasp that I don't want to fiddle around with the device, I want it to work for me, out of the box. I want the mac experience rather than the Linux experience. I don't find it fun to mess around with a reader, I just want to read.

Right now, the *only* thing that would motivate me to hack a Kobo, is to run the Kindle interface on it. To get a more responsive device, with lover input lag, better touch precision and more thought through menus. To me that is what is important, the feeling of using the device. It could have all the options in the world, but if it's annoying to use, due to how all input is handled, it doesn't matter.

I still hope that the Pocket book will ge me a better experience. But from what I've heard, it's even worse.

Originally Posted by ps67

@sniglom; You ask: * Why can't I override the line spacing of a book if it's predefined in the epub? Annoying.

Yes it is annoying but there is a patch for that.

But, of course, if You are not confortable with a Kobo nobody can say to You what You should do.

I bought a KP3 in february 2017 and in July 2018 I bought a Kobo Aura One. I wanted a larger screen and KA1 was the best option. I took some time to be used with Kobo but now I prefer it respect to a Kindle. But the KP3 is more reactive, it is true. Again: preferences are pretty personal.

Thank you for understanding. I'm not trying to convince anyone to dislike Kobo.
It seems like Kobo wasn't for me. If someone else likes it, that's great. More devices to choose from is good for everyone.

[hollowpoint]

OP in general (not all details, but most) I'd affirm your experience with Kindle PW and recent Kobos.

I've gone full circle. Started years ago with the earliest Kindles. Then several years ago tired of them, went through several Kobos including most recently the Clara and Forma. Enjoyed them, especially the Forma. Now after living with the quirks and limitations of the Kobos, I get why some still like them, but I've come back to a combination of Kindle PW4, and the Kindle apps on my Samsung phone and Ipad Mini.

My perspective is the Kobos are more customizable, and are really nice for folks who like to tinker. You see a ton of software developers (of which I am one) and IT folks using Kobos, and I had my fun patching and customizing and loading alternate OS's. Also I thought Kobo provided better support for more file formats. And and finally, I thought Kobo had the screen sizes down better, with several 7" screens and even the 8" Forma.

What brought me back to Amazon, despite it being more 'canned' and less options to customize, were the following considerations:
* Consistently slow, clunky, or poorly performing features and software on the Kobos. Good enough, maybe. But compared to the Kindles, ALWAYS slower and less polished, and usually less feature rich.
* Lack of true cross-platform applications. Not everyone cares about this, but I do. I want to be able to seamlessly read books across my PC's, phone, Ipad, and Kindle, and have my reading positions and notes sync. Only Amazon and Kindle really do this well, nobody else is even close.

For some of the same reasons as above, I've also given up on all 3rd party reading apps. Mapleread on the Ipad, for example. FB Reader for Ipad, Android. Moon Reader. Many others. Bottom line, again, nobody seems to have the complete feature set and cross-platform syncing of the Kindle platform.

Amazon has some annoying business practices. And yeah, I'd like it if Kindles were more customizable, better ergos and screen sizes. But all things considered, nobody else comes close to overall ecosystem: a huge selection of available books, apps that store and sync your books across all platforms. It's hard to beat, and those are things I value.

As far as being able to 'liberate' and really own my own books that I buy from Amazon, yes I still do that too. I get the serial off my PW4, put it into the DeDRM add-in in Calibre, and remove the DRM encryption just so I'll have the non-DRM'd files that in the future I can use if I need to. But in general, I don't try to load those books back onto my Kindle device and apps. I just use the Amazon versions to get the benefit of full feature support and syncing with minimum hassle.

Nice thing in the ebook world is, there's something for everybody. But I don't think the Amazon Kindle platform is a bad way to go, at least not for me.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by hollowpoint

* Lack of true cross-platform applications. Not everyone cares about this, but I do. I want to be able to seamlessly read books across my PC's, phone, Ipad, and Kindle, and have my reading positions and notes sync. Only Amazon and Kindle really do this well, nobody else is even close.

As far as being able to 'liberate' and really own my own books that I buy from Amazon, yes I still do that too. I get the serial off my PW4, put it into the DeDRM add-in in Calibre, and remove the DRM encryption just so I'll have the non-DRM'd files that in the future I can use if I need to. But in general, I don't try to load those books back onto my Kindle device and apps. I just use the Amazon versions to get the benefit of full feature support and syncing with minimum hassle.

Kobo does exactly the same thing. It will sync purchased books between the devices, the apps and their desktop application which is available for Windows and MAC. The only thing that is missing is a Linux application. But, I don't know of a Kindle application for Linux, so the two are the same.

About the only thing I can think of that makes syncing Kobo devices harder is that they don't have 3G or 4G support. The devices will only sync over WiFi, or via the desktop app.

I've read Kobo books using all these methods, multiple e-ink devices, Android app on my phone, iOS app on my iPad, Windows desktop app. The sync happens seamlessly as I swapped between them.

[hollowpoint]

Originally Posted by davidfor

Kobo does exactly the same thing. It will sync purchased books between the devices, the apps and their desktop application which is available for Windows and MAC.

That's true David. I should have clarified that I meant not just the existence of apps for the leading devices and OS's, but consistent reliable feature support and data syncing across that entire app ecosystem. I valued syncing of user data--including notes--across all those apps and platforms, including all the books in your library (even books imported from other stores, something Kobo still does not do, but Amazon does).

I did use the Kobo apps on Android, Windows, and the Forma most recently when I still had one. But syncing of notes was unreliable even with just Kobo store books, particularly when the notes were made on the Forma versus on the Android app. Also, there was no accessible cloud version of the notes in the app ecosystem, so there was no easy way to let you extract the content of a web page, or associate it with other content such as the Goodreads social platform (another thing I know that many here could take or leave, but I enjoy using). With the Amazon ecosystem, I can go to read.amazon.com/notebook, load up my notes for a book, then run a free script by Bookcision over my notes to extract them for exporting to a doc, or I can use the OneNote web clipper. I've also been testing a free and open source academic app called Zotero, for collecting research notes and sources. Together with Amazon ecosystem, this gives a way to get all your notes into a nicely structured database that's accessible online and in your browser. It's searchable, tagged, and just generally more useful and reusable in other contexts. Again, all this made possible by Amazon working to open up their platform with an ecosystem that makes data interchange possible. I know Kobo has some limited cross platform support and data interchange, but I always felt it was lacking, not at the same level.