Most reading programs/apps are garbage

JSWolf · 04-28-2017, 10:23 AM

Most programs/apps are garbage. The are garbage because they don't have a way of respecting the CSS and allowing the overrides not to override if we do not want. So what we end up with are eBooks that look like somone else's idea if how they should look. I like overrides if each one can be turned off and let me use the ones I want if I even want. Then a number of programs/apps go even further and don't respect the CSS even more. For example, the newly released TiReader 2 Pro doesn't even respect a center class for the section break marker used. When you first load your book, it has to format it because it's busy OVERRIDING THE CSS.

When we find such garbage, we need to write reviews saying these things and give ONE STAR. We also need to not reccomend and of this programs/apps. We need to try to tell the author(s) not to ignore the CSS.

Let's stop the madness and say when a reading program/app is garbage. If it forces us to override the CSS then it's garbage no matter how flashy it looks.

Cinisajoy · 04-28-2017, 10:33 AM

Hey Jon,
I hate to tell you this but most people wouldn't know a CSS from a CSI.
Though I am inclined to agree with you if you drop one word.
The correct phrasing would be most apps are garbage.
I have found reading apps I can use. What I am having problems with is a pantry app.

theducks · 04-28-2017, 11:20 AM

Garbage is a bit harsh.

Arrogant, in that they force their way on us.

IMHO the stylesheet (CSS) should be a BASE, with the user adjustments algebraically added .
The exception would be Font-Family: 1)use if embedded or on device. 2)never use (use device setting). 3)Map specific families.

Ravensknight · 04-28-2017, 05:53 PM

Oh, For Frank's Sake.

Ever thought about journaling? You know, where you keep ALL the words to yourself?

JSWolf · 04-28-2017, 06:40 PM

So you don't mind that these programs/apps decide the way get to see your book and you don't get to see the book the way it's coded? So if the program/app changes things too much, you'd be happy with that?

So why is it that most programs/apps override the CSS with their values for some functions/features and in some cases, ignores the CSS like TiReader 2 Pro and Cool Reader (both ignore some CSS).

Cinisajoy · 04-28-2017, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So you don't mind that these programs/apps decide the way get to see your book and you don't get to see the book the way it's coded? So if the program/app changes things too much, you'd be happy with that?

So why is it that most programs/apps override the CSS with their values for some functions/features and in some cases, ignores the CSS like TiReader 2 Pro and Cool Reader (both ignore some CSS).

Can I read the words? If yes, then I am not worried about the CSS.
Now silly question, how am I supposed to know the program changed the CSS?

Now what I don't like is when the publisher sets the font and I can't adjust the font so I can read it.

MGlitch · 04-28-2017, 09:34 PM

I think the problem isn't just apps but that there are still publishers ignoring standards.

I don't read on anything other than my ereader, which has been a Kobo ever since the H2O was released so I don't really have much of a problem, I can simply remove bad CSS if it really bothers me and I like the kepub renderer currently

AlexBell · 04-28-2017, 10:58 PM

[QUOTE=J
Let's stop the madness and say when a reading program/app is garbage. If it forces us to override the CSS then it's garbage no matter how flashy it looks.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you almost entirely, Jon, except that it's not 'we' who override the CSS, it's designer of the app. As someone else in the thread has said many of us don't even know what CSS is, nor how important it is, nor how much work goes into setting up the CSS to make the text of an ebook read consistently across platforms. And I suppose if we don't know what CSS is or how important it is we are hardly likely to care if it is mangled.

It would be good to have a list of apps which override the ebook designer's CSS. Could you perhaps post a list of the apps known to you, Jon? Then others could add to it and make it a thread.

Barty · 04-29-2017, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravensknight

Oh, For Frank's Sake.

Ever thought about journaling? You know, where you keep ALL the words to yourself?

Feel free to take your own advice.

Most e-reader apps on Android break formatting. In particular, I hate it when space between paragraphs and first line indent aren't handled correctly so every paragraph looks the same and you can't tell where there is a scene break.

DNSB · 04-29-2017, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barty

Feel free to take your own advice.

Most e-reader apps on Android break formatting. In particular, I hate it when space between paragraphs and first line indent aren't handled correctly so every paragraph looks the same and you can't tell where there is a scene break.

Sadly we start getting into the endless arguments about respecting the publisher's CSS vs. overriding it. Given that most apps/devices that override the CSS, IMNSHO, put generic crap on the screen while quite a few publishers do so little testing that again they put crap on the screen. As for the indie authors? They at least have the excuse that they are one person shops on a very limited budget -- it looks good in Kindlegen so let's ship.

"A pox o' both your houses." WS

John F · 04-29-2017, 06:19 AM

At this point, I think that they are "good enough". On my Kobo, the stock reader (with patches and after formatting with Calibre) works well. On my phone, the app I use works well.

I did struggle at first with Calibre for the formatting options, but things have "just worked" for the past couple of years.

I do wish that the Kindles' software had more formatting choices (font size and margin size); I probably would give Kindles a try of they did.

DiapDealer · 04-29-2017, 09:38 AM

I love my Android reading app.

As long as there's no atrocious formatting, I no longer care the least little bit about how a book was intended to look. It's irrelevant. And if there IS atrocious formatting, I adjust it if it can be quickly achieved, or abandon the book if it can't.

I've got bigger worries than indents that are half-an-em to large, or dropcaps that create slight line-spacing discrepancies. I've got a book to read. *shrug*

latepaul · 04-29-2017, 10:07 AM

Generally I don't much care as long as I can read the book.

However I was using Koreader a lot on my Kindles and Kobos and I found that if I switched off "embedded style" - which you have to do in order to change the font - I often get the problem Barty described where a longer section break becomes identical to a new paragraph break.

JSWolf · 04-29-2017, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barty

Most e-reader apps on Android break formatting. In particular, I hate it when space between paragraphs and first line indent aren't handled correctly so every paragraph looks the same and you can't tell where there is a scene break.

iOS has it's share of CSS breakers. I too dislike when the paragraph after the section break or the first paragraph of the chapter is indented the same as all the others because paragraph indenting is 100% overridden and paragraph with no indent is now a paragraph with an indent. Paragraph indents need too options. One for an adjustment for the indents as well as an adjustment for indents of 0. This way, we can adjust the indents and leave the non-indents alone. Of course, all overrides need a shut off and when off, the CSS should be respected.

An example of a problem with overrides is TiReader 2 Pro. I have the CSS set for no line-height. Yet I am stuck with a minimum of a 1.2em line-height. I cannot go any lower or have the app just go with the CSS and use whatever line-height is there using the font chosen.

Sure, a lot of people don't understand CSS or even know about it, but the authors of these apps do (or should). So there's no excuse for a reading app that changes the book without letting us see it as it's intended to be seen. And sometimes the override values used don't work because they are not what the person reading wants.

barryem · 04-29-2017, 02:26 PM

I'm with Cinisajoy. If the app makes it easy to read the text it's just fine.

I would call an app garbage if it doesn't work; if it doesn't do it's job. Not if it doesn't work the way the big bad Wolfe things it should work.

Sometimes I think Wolfe has 2 categories: absolutely perfect and totally garbage.

I read on my phone more than a little bit with Moon+. I haven't the slightest idea what it does or doesn't do with CSS, nor do I care. Reading apps, like reading devices, are about reading, not about following a certain style.

Before I began using Moon+ I tried maybe a dozen or 2 dozen other reading apps. Most were just fine but I kept looking till I found one that scrolled, which I had been used to from my Palm days. Most Palm reading apps scrolled.

The only less than fine app I tried was Aldiko and it might have been fine too but I wasn't able to figure out how to import books into it. I finally gave up. I tried it again not long ago for some reason and even it was just fine now.

I'm not sure there are really any garbage ereading apps, or at least not enough that I found one while trying apps at random.

Barry

04-28-2017, 10:23 AM	#1
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,936 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	Most reading programs/apps are garbage Most programs/apps are garbage. The are garbage because they don't have a way of respecting the CSS and allowing the overrides not to override if we do not want. So what we end up with are eBooks that look like somone else's idea if how they should look. I like overrides if each one can be turned off and let me use the ones I want if I even want. Then a number of programs/apps go even further and don't respect the CSS even more. For example, the newly released TiReader 2 Pro doesn't even respect a center class for the section break marker used. When you first load your book, it has to format it because it's busy OVERRIDING THE CSS. When we find such garbage, we need to write reviews saying these things and give ONE STAR. We also need to not reccomend and of this programs/apps. We need to try to tell the author(s) not to ignore the CSS. Let's stop the madness and say when a reading program/app is garbage. If it forces us to override the CSS then it's garbage no matter how flashy it looks.

04-28-2017, 06:40 PM	#5
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 78,936 Karma: 144284074 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	So you don't mind that these programs/apps decide the way get to see your book and you don't get to see the book the way it's coded? So if the program/app changes things too much, you'd be happy with that? So why is it that most programs/apps override the CSS with their values for some functions/features and in some cases, ignores the CSS like TiReader 2 Pro and Cool Reader (both ignore some CSS). Last edited by JSWolf; 04-28-2017 at 06:43 PM.

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04-28-2017, 10:33 AM	#2
Cinisajoy Just a Yellow Smiley. Posts: 19,161 Karma: 83862859 Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Texas Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy	Hey Jon, I hate to tell you this but most people wouldn't know a CSS from a CSI. Though I am inclined to agree with you if you drop one word. The correct phrasing would be most apps are garbage. I have found reading apps I can use. What I am having problems with is a pantry app.

04-28-2017, 11:20 AM	#3
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 30,880 Karma: 59840450 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	Garbage is a bit harsh. Arrogant, in that they force their way on us. IMHO the stylesheet (CSS) should be a BASE, with the user adjustments algebraically added . The exception would be Font-Family: 1)use if embedded or on device. 2)never use (use device setting). 3)Map specific families.

04-28-2017, 05:53 PM	#4
Ravensknight Serpent Rider Posts: 1,123 Karma: 10219804 Join Date: Jun 2009 Device: Sony 350; Nook STR; Oasis	Oh, For Frank's Sake. Ever thought about journaling? You know, where you keep ALL the words to yourself?

04-28-2017, 09:34 PM	#7
MGlitch Wizard Posts: 2,855 Karma: 22003124 Join Date: Aug 2014 Device: Kobo Forma, Kobo Sage, Kobo Libra 2	I think the problem isn't just apps but that there are still publishers ignoring standards. I don't read on anything other than my ereader, which has been a Kobo ever since the H2O was released so I don't really have much of a problem, I can simply remove bad CSS if it really bothers me and I like the kepub renderer currently

04-28-2017, 10:58 PM	#8
AlexBell Wizard Posts: 3,413 Karma: 13369310 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Launceston, Tasmania Device: Sony PRS T3, Kobo Glo, Kindle Touch, iPad, Samsung SB 2 tablet	[QUOTE=J Let's stop the madness and say when a reading program/app is garbage. If it forces us to override the CSS then it's garbage no matter how flashy it looks.[/QUOTE] I agree with you almost entirely, Jon, except that it's not 'we' who override the CSS, it's designer of the app. As someone else in the thread has said many of us don't even know what CSS is, nor how important it is, nor how much work goes into setting up the CSS to make the text of an ebook read consistently across platforms. And I suppose if we don't know what CSS is or how important it is we are hardly likely to care if it is mangled. It would be good to have a list of apps which override the ebook designer's CSS. Could you perhaps post a list of the apps known to you, Jon? Then others could add to it and make it a thread.

04-29-2017, 06:19 AM	#11
John F Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,835 Karma: 70000001 Join Date: Feb 2009 Device: Kobo Clara 2E	At this point, I think that they are "good enough". On my Kobo, the stock reader (with patches and after formatting with Calibre) works well. On my phone, the app I use works well. I did struggle at first with Calibre for the formatting options, but things have "just worked" for the past couple of years. I do wish that the Kindles' software had more formatting choices (font size and margin size); I probably would give Kindles a try of they did.

04-29-2017, 09:38 AM	#12
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,338 Karma: 203719142 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	I love my Android reading app. As long as there's no atrocious formatting, I no longer care the least little bit about how a book was intended to look. It's irrelevant. And if there IS atrocious formatting, I adjust it if it can be quickly achieved, or abandon the book if it can't. I've got bigger worries than indents that are half-an-em to large, or dropcaps that create slight line-spacing discrepancies. I've got a book to read. shrug

04-29-2017, 10:07 AM	#13
latepaul Wizard Posts: 1,270 Karma: 10468300 Join Date: Dec 2011 Device: a variety (mostly kindles and kobos)	Generally I don't much care as long as I can read the book. However I was using Koreader a lot on my Kindles and Kobos and I found that if I switched off "embedded style" - which you have to do in order to change the font - I often get the problem Barty described where a longer section break becomes identical to a new paragraph break.

04-29-2017, 02:26 PM	#15
barryem Wizard Posts: 2,459 Karma: 68781975 Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Arkansas Device: Paperwhite 4	I'm with Cinisajoy. If the app makes it easy to read the text it's just fine. I would call an app garbage if it doesn't work; if it doesn't do it's job. Not if it doesn't work the way the big bad Wolfe things it should work. Sometimes I think Wolfe has 2 categories: absolutely perfect and totally garbage. I read on my phone more than a little bit with Moon+. I haven't the slightest idea what it does or doesn't do with CSS, nor do I care. Reading apps, like reading devices, are about reading, not about following a certain style. Before I began using Moon+ I tried maybe a dozen or 2 dozen other reading apps. Most were just fine but I kept looking till I found one that scrolled, which I had been used to from my Palm days. Most Palm reading apps scrolled. The only less than fine app I tried was Aldiko and it might have been fine too but I wasn't able to figure out how to import books into it. I finally gave up. I tried it again not long ago for some reason and even it was just fine now. I'm not sure there are really any garbage ereading apps, or at least not enough that I found one while trying apps at random. Barry

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