Obligations & Trust

[Timboli]

Have you ever considered how Trust between a Buyer and Seller, is generally only one way, and what that really means?

The way I see it, unless you are being given something for free, then the seller has certain obligations, especially if you are doing them the favor of giving them money and perhaps promoting to others.

So in reality there is an imbalance occurring, especially when sellers don't meet their obligations, both written and unwritten.

I'm not saying that a buyer doesn't benefit. Mostly they do, but not always, and really the buyer is the only one generally who has to extend trust. Trust that the purchase arrives, trust it is as specified, trust it is in good condition and will last a decent amount of time, trust it is legitimate, trust they are being charged a fair price ... and so on and so on.

Without Buyers, Sellers, even intermediary ones like Amazon and other stores, would be nothing ... wouldn't even exist.

So yes, from my perspective for sure, at the very least, there is certainly an obligation to the customer. The obligation is not a one way street though and neither should the trust be.

Buyers Unite!

[Penforhire]

This is why escrow services exist, to reduce that trust imbalance.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Have you ever considered how Trust between a Buyer and Seller, is generally only one way, and what that really means?

I'm not sure it's ever crossed my mind, to tell the truth. I'm looking for places to buy things, not vetting suitors for my first-born.

[Timboli]

You should probably change that to -

"I'm looking for places to buy things, not vetting suitors for my first-book. "

Sounds funnier.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Timboli

You should probably change that to -

"I'm looking for places to buy things, not vetting suitors for my first-book. "

Sounds funnier.

Except that I have no aspirations of ever writing (or selling) a book. If you meant something else, I'm afraid I don't get the joke.

In all seriousness: in my 50+ years of existence, I can easily count on one hand the number of times I've felt "slighted" by a seller (from Mom & Pop to Multinational Online Presence). Perhaps that's because I don't allow myself to make the mistake of believing I'm entering into some sort of "relationship" with them. I'm buying stuff. Lots and lots of stuff that I enjoy and nearly nothing that I don't. I win at buying stuff, I guess.

[issybird]

Moved to the Lounge, since it has nothing particularly to do with ereading.

[Cinisajoy]

Let's see I buy a product from a business. I trust it will work. The store is under no obligation to sell me anything else.
Now I don't know about Australia but here in the US, a business reserves the right to not serve a person.

[latepaul]

I don't think you're doing the seller "a favour" by buying from them. It's an exchange. You could just as well say they're doing you a favour by offering the thing you want to buy.

I think the problem with having expectations over and above the obvious exchange of money for goods or services, is that they can be ill-defined or subjective. One person's idea of what is reasonable differs from another. That's why we have laws or why businesses provide terms and conditions. It's to lay out in as specific a way as possible what people can expect - and hopefully lend some weight to enforcing it if necessary.

I think there are some implied obligations but these would be things along the lines of fitness for purpose. If half the ebook is missing*, if your toaster does not in fact make toast, if the TV conks out five minutes after you got it home - I think these are grounds to say the obligations have not been met and either a refund or replacement or repair is in order.

There are more subjective cases. What if the ebook is complete but has typos? Is there an acceptable number or should it always be zero? What about if I simply didn't enjoy the book?

Have a look around these forums and you'll see the issue of screen quality on ereader devices is quite the issue. Some people have a lower tolerance for variation in lighting or colouring for example. It's possible that the item is faulty or it's possible that the technology is at a point where the best you can get is still below some people's standards. If it's the later, does the buyer or seller have the responsibility?

Most businesses will want to be seen as being on the side of their customers. Amazon is better than most in this regard. But even then there's a point where they may draw a line and retreat the baseline of the T&Cs or the law.

(*I'm thinking of a case where something went wrong and half the file is missing, not where something is a part work and clearly labelled as such.)

[darryl]

With all the legislation about buying and selling goods that exists in the developed countries i'm afraid I can't agree with you. Sellers have all sorts of obligations, enforced both by governments and by individuals in Courts and even cheap tribunals. Each state has its equivalent of a Department of Fair Trading and a Fair Trading Tribunal. The latter is very pro-consumer and a seller often loses even if they win because of the time and inconvenience involved. There are numerous statutory warranties. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the extent of regulation is such that hte balance is in favour of Buyers.

And, of course, try telling any EBay seller who has been defrauded by buyers who fraudulently claim never to have received the goods. Anecdotally this has become such a problem on EBay that they are losing many sellers.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Except that I have no aspirations of ever writing (or selling) a book. If you meant something else, I'm afraid I don't get the joke.

It was based on buying, not selling or writing, and suitors could just as easily be sellers.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Have you ever considered how Trust between a Buyer and Seller, is generally only one way, and what that really means?

The way I see it, unless you are being given something for free, then the seller has certain obligations, especially if you are doing them the favor of giving them money and perhaps promoting to others.

Yes, and those obligations are covered under consumer law. Did you have a specific question or examples you wanted to discuss?

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by darryl

With all the legislation about buying and selling goods that exists in the developed countries i'm afraid I can't agree with you. Sellers have all sorts of obligations, enforced both by governments and by individuals in Courts and even cheap tribunals. Each state has its equivalent of a Department of Fair Trading and a Fair Trading Tribunal. The latter is very pro-consumer and a seller often loses even if they win because of the time and inconvenience involved. There are numerous statutory warranties. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the extent of regulation is such that hte balance is in favour of Buyers.

And, of course, try telling any EBay seller who has been defrauded by buyers who fraudulently claim never to have received the goods. Anecdotally this has become such a problem on EBay that they are losing many sellers.

I agree with the Ebay bit, but not the other.

In my experience, if the buyer has to even go down the Tribunal road they have lost, even if they win. No-one ever recompenses them for the time and the trouble and anguish, when a seller is doing the wrong thing.

The buyer loses out on mileage and postage, and time that could have been better spent doing something else.

That's not to say the buyer is always in the right, of course not, but the odds are stacked against them right from the start. Like I said in the first post, there is not a level playing field when it comes to trust.

And as far as expectations go, in response to what others have said, the seller has the biggest expectation of all, and really do call all the shots when you truly stop and think about it, except a guarantee of purchase. They provide a product, but nothing guarantees that anyone will like it enough to buy, so really when someone does buy, it is a blessing, favor even. Sure you can do studies and determine there is a market for something, but at best that's just educated guesswork.

Most people who create something, get a reward just for creating it. Sure they might be focused on financial reward, but any creative person worth a pinch enjoys being creative. And of course many create things and never sell them, and others love what they have created, but no-one else appreciates it.

Buyers on the other hand, often go disappointed. They buy things that don't live up to expectations, but have no recourse over it. So not only have they not really enjoyed something, but they have paid for the displeasure of it.

Most things are sold with some kind of marketing, and the marketing often builds things up to be far better than they actually are, so in a very real way, lies. Some of course will call it poetic license.

So yes, the buyer can benefit and often does, and so yes if they really enjoyed it, they have been done a favor, especially if they didn't pay too much, but they take the greatest risk by far and are the ones forced to extend trust.

None of what I've said negates there is another side to it, just that things are not equal when all is said and done, and the buyer is generally the one worse off, when things don't work out like they should have.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Buyers on the other hand, often go disappointed. They buy things that don't live up to expectations, but have no recourse over it. So not only have they not really enjoyed something, but they have paid for the displeasure of it.

Could it be that those people simply suck at buying stuff? Or have unreasonable expectations? 'Cause that's not been my experience at all. I find it quite trivial to buy scads of stuff (from a variety of places) that I'm not disappointed with. The handful of times I've ever had to return anything, the process was handled graciously, quickly and competently.

[Timboli]

Well, all I can say to that, as one who has also lived 50+ years, almost 60 actually, is that some do indeed live a charmed existence. So lucky you. Others are not so lucky or are indeed unlucky. And I am long past the error of thinking we can all be Donald Trump, if we just try a little harder. We are not all born the same, and we don't all experience the same, and no matter how hard some try, things just don't work out, and despite what some think, it ain't usually their fault. Nature, Nurture call them what you will, we each tread a different road.

[Cinisajoy]

Timboli,
Since this thread is in the lounge, why don't you tell everyone what started this thread?

I am guessing that you are still talking about a company not selling you something.