Bookbub -- are authors getting duped?

[eggheadbooks1]

I keep hearing authors rave about Bookbub, and getting chosen seems to be a badge of honor, and yet...

I looked at their pricing. For example, in Crime Fiction they charge $940.00 for the ad if the book is priced less than $1.00. The average sales are 3360. At $0.99 per sale the royalty rate (35%) is $1164.24. That's an average fee of almost 81% of your royalties.

More importantly, they have 3,290,000+ subscribers for Crime Fiction. But at 3360 sales, that's only a .1% buy rate. In other words, 99.9% of all Bookbub subscribers DO NOT BUY. That's abysmal! Why would an author want to be in a bookstore where only .1% of customers buy? And pay for the "privilege" to be in it?

Or take Supernatural Suspense. Average downloads are 980 yet Bookbub charge $360.00 for a book priced below $1, which is $20.43 MORE than what the author earns in royalties. So Bookbub take all the author's royalties and then some. This strikes me as absurd.

On top of all this Bookbub earn affiliate income from Amazon.

So, fantastic for Bookbub but crap for the author. Is this a case of the Emperor's new clothes? Are authors getting duped?

Your thoughts?

[Cinisajoy]

Most authors that get accepted have more than 1 book. So those 3000 buys are just on one book.
Also if the book is exclusive to Amazon, the author gets the regular royalty of 70%.
Bookbub is not a bookstore but an advertiser. Note, those subscribers are across all genres. Where does it say that many subscribe to Crime Fiction.
Here is the thing, Bookbub is for getting visibility.

As a wise man once said, one has to invest money to make money.
Yes, this guy runs sales, yes he uses Bookbub and other advertisers. He also works his butt off.
Wait I know at least 3 that fit that profile.
All three make more in a month than my household brings home in a year.

So no, authors are not getting duped.

Side note: if you get a BB, chances are some of the smaller advertisers might pick you up. So more sales for the same buck.

[eggheadbooks1]

I know Bookbub is not a bookstore; I was merely making a comparison.

The number of subscribers per genre is on the Bookbub website.

Not all publishers are exclusive to Amazon. Most hybrid authors are not, and neither are the trad publishers that Bookbub is allegedly now attracting.

[Cinisajoy]

No they are not.
I was just correcting your 35% across the board statement.

Now here is the thing.
The authors are not giving Bookbub royalties. They are paying for an advertising service. Advertising cannot be compared to a bookstore.
Not to mention, that download figure is only from those people that used the Bookbub link to get the book.
Example: today Breakers is advertised on Bookbub. I did not click on the link in the email but I will go over to Amazon to see if I own it or need to grab it. Note I owned it.
Now that particular author has several other books too and looking I see he has more books I might be interested in.

Bookbub is for visibilty. I know one author that has an advertising budget that makes a Bookbub look cheap.
It is to get people in the door. Rather like sweet potatoes were 5 lbs for $1 at a local store. $100+ later, we left said store.
Yes, the store lost money on the potatoes but they made it up elsewhere. You know on the roasts, chips, other groceries one didn't know one needed.

Again one has to spend money to make money.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Most authors that get accepted have more than 1 book. So those 3000 buys are just on one book.
Also if the book is exclusive to Amazon, the author gets the regular royalty of 70%.

So, an author who is in KDP Select gets 70%, now, even if the book is priced below $2.99? When did that change?

Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

So, an author who is in KDP Select gets 70%, now, even if the book is priced below $2.99? When did that change?

Hitch

Only if they do a countdown deal. I thought I said if they were exclusive and did the sale.
Oh course I have been known to forget words.
It has to be normally priced between $2.99 and $9.99 to get the 70%.

[eggheadbooks1]

Ciniasjoy: Now here is the thing. Bookbub are the advertiser BUT they are also an Amazon affiliate, which is why Bookbub's price goes up the higher your book is priced: the higher the price, the less traffic clicks through, the less Bookbub makes on affiliate fees and therefore tries to make back on charging the publisher more. If Bookbub were merely an advertiser, the ad would cost the same no matter the price of the product. If I take out an ad on Google, or in my local newspaper, I am not charged for my ad based on the price of my product.

My comment comparing Bookbub to a bookstore is simply this: Bookbub is about eyeballs, traffic, but would you want to be in any store where the customer-to-buyer ratio is only .1%? Would you advertise in your local paper if they told you that only .1% of the people who see your ad will show any interest?

So I'm questioning the math-to-hype ratio. And yes, one has to spend money to make money, but one can still question the ROI. Any smart businessperson does. It may be that ads on 10 similar sites at less cost is better than 1 ad on Bookbub.

The proof is in the pudding. If you think Bookbub is a good return on investment, share some numbers. And not just free downloads, but actual sales figures.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Only if they do a countdown deal. I thought I said if they were exclusive and did the sale.
Oh course I have been known to forget words.
It has to be normally priced between $2.99 and $9.99 to get the 70%.

That's what I thought. Just making sure I understood the discussion, as somewhere in here, it seemed as though there was some dismissal of the numbers; but as many authors are not in KDP Select, nor in Countdown Deals, the 35% of the $0.99 would be accurate.

Vis-a-vis the sales-advertising click through ratio, as someone who advertises myself, while .1% isn't fabulous, it is in a tight niche. In other words, normal open rates (2%) are only good based on how many of those, in turn, buy. It's reasonable to assume that Bookbub may have--I say, may--a higher click-thru-to-buy percentage than the average bear. Just an idea.

I have a number of clients who use Bookbub, and most seem to be happy. I can't share their numbers, but those that do, and are happy, are those who treat publishing as a business--not a hobby. They keep very diligent spreadsheets and calculate their risk-return ratios quite tightly. I can only assume, then, that those folks are getting solid returns on their advertising dollars.

n.b.: most of those are multiple-book clients. More like 4-5 books, not 2. If that helps.

Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

I wish I had actual numbers for you. But I just know what authors have told me.
I am trying to figure out what the big deal is about they are an advertiser and an Amazon affliate.
Are you saying if a person is advertising their book for sale on their website, they shouldn't be an Amazon affliate?
Or are you saying that an advertiser shouldn't make money off of both the author and the seller (Amazon)?

Are you entirely positive about how other ads are priced?
Most ebook advertisers only accept certain priced books. So yes the ad price is based on the price of a book.
I assume we are talking e-mail advertising, since TV and radio charge by the second and also by the time of day or by the second and what is on.
Example of this will be on February 7. That for one network is most expensive to advertise on that day for about 3 hours. And actually 1/2 hour I think runs at least $1000 per second. How much is a coke these days?

As to your other theory, buying 10 other ads instead of BB will not get you 10 times the readers as there is much overlap on the subscribers.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

That's what I thought. Just making sure I understood the discussion, as somewhere in here, it seemed as though there was some dismissal of the numbers; but as many authors are not in KDP Select, nor in Countdown Deals, the 35% of the $0.99 would be accurate.

Vis-a-vis the sales-advertising click through ratio, as someone who advertises myself, while .1% isn't fabulous, it is in a tight niche. In other words, normal open rates (2%) are only good based on how many of those, in turn, buy. It's reasonable to assume that Bookbub may have--I say, may--a higher click-thru-to-buy percentage than the average bear. Just an idea.

I have a number of clients who use Bookbub, and most seem to be happy. I can't share their numbers, but those that do, and are happy, are those who treat publishing as a business--not a hobby. They keep very diligent spreadsheets and calculate their risk-return ratios quite tightly. I can only assume, then, that those folks are getting solid returns on their advertising dollars.

n.b.: most of those are multiple-book clients. More like 4-5 books, not 2. If that helps.

Hitch

Just 4 or 5 books? Most I know that do Bookbub, 5 is the absolute minimum on number of books they have out.

Hey Hitch,
I think the OP is basing their ideas on only average Bookbub buys. Not the extra benefits.
And yes every successful Bookbub author I know keeps very diligent records too. On everything connected with the book.
I do believe we are both talking about authors that easily spend 4 figures or a high 3 before the book comes out.

[eggheadbooks1]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I have a number of clients who use Bookbub, and most seem to be happy. I can't share their numbers, but those that do, and are happy, are those who treat publishing as a business--not a hobby. They keep very diligent spreadsheets and calculate their risk-return ratios quite tightly. I can only assume, then, that those folks are getting solid returns on their advertising dollars.

n.b.: most of those are multiple-book clients. More like 4-5 books, not 2. If that helps.

Hitch

I have colleagues who have used Bookbub, with mixed results. These colleagues, too, have multiple books out, but it is often hard for them to quantify what the longer-term effects are specifically from Bookbub versus the author/publisher's overall marketing efforts: the domino effect leading to sales of their other books are not often immediate. This is especially true of those giving their book away for free AND paying Bookbub to advertise it. Too often these colleagues just seem to shrug their heads and say, "It was very expensive, and of course I made no royalties either, but at least that's 1000 people who didn't know about me before."

The problem I have with Bookbub is that their rates seem so out of proportion to the return. When the ad costs as much or more than the resulting immediate sales, the price demanded strikes me as audacious. The thing to remember, too, is that these sales figures are averages: yes, some authors will sell more and maybe break even or earn something, but just as many will lose even more than the example figures noted earlier.

And Cinisajoy: the price for radio or TV ads changes depending on the time of day, etc, because that is based on audience numbers; it has nothing to do with the cost of the product. A car manufacturer selling a $50K car and Coke selling a $1 soda pay the same price for the same time slot. So I still take issue with a company pricing their ads based on the price of the product. In a way, Bookbub are forcing authors to steeply discount their book price just to avail themselves of the "opportunity" to use Bookbub's services. You don't see this kind of business model with traditional advertising.

In any case, this coercion is a direct result of Bookbub being an Amazon affiliate. It is also rather unkosher of Bookbub not to come right out and tell their clients about the Amazon affiliation.

(And I am aware that many ebook advertisers also place a cap on the book price because they, too, are Amazon affiliates --and lower ebook prices result in a higher click-through rate -- but I don't know of any that increase the price of the ad if the book is priced higher. I accept that my knowledge is not complete, so if you know of any other ebook advertising sites that increase the cost to the author based on their book price, please share.)

So I'm still on the fence regarding this company. Some days I think I should try them but as I a) do not give my book away for free, the price is considerable; and b) I am not in Select so I would only make 35% on the sale price.

[Cinisajoy]

Others just only accept books at a certain price.
Now I will be honest with you. It doesn't sound like you should use Bookbub or at least not right now.
Did you know that Bookbub rejects more books than it advertises?

The real reason Bookbub can and does charge so much is because they have built up a reputation and they work hard to maintain it.

I probably shouldn't do this but if your writing is good, I might have a couple of better fits for you and your budget.
Note, at one point I got all the advertising emails.
You might look into ereaderiq and ohfb.
They are cheaper but have pretty good subscriber lists.
Now there is no guarantee that they will accept your book.
They also are building reputations for good books. And yes they are both affliates.
See unlike Coke or Lexus you are in a business where you have to prove you are good to get an advertising spot.

[Cinisajoy]

Oh wait,
You said book singular not you have several books.
My advice is a bit different for that case.
Do not worry about advertising.
Do not go free with one book.
Wait until you have more to offer your potential readers.

The sad reality is that you might have the greatest book ever but if you have nothing to offer after the reader has finished your first one you will be nothing more than a distant memory. They won't keep checking back but will go on to either the next great author or back to a standby they know is good and reliable.

[eggheadbooks1]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh wait,
You said book singular not you have several books.
My advice is a bit different for that case.
Do not worry about advertising.
Do not go free with one book.
Wait until you have more to offer your potential readers.

I have said nothing in this thread about my own books. And I am getting the impression English may not be your first language, so you may not be understanding the nuances of my posts.

I'm not looking for your (unsolicited) advice or your alleged honesty, as you don't know the facts of my business and are unfamiliar with my books. It would be more helpful if you just stuck to the question posed, which is whether or not Bookbub's numbers/results support the hype.

[gmw]

It seems that the conversation has turned a little cross-purpose.

How you use Bookbub, and what you can expect to get out of it, are things not easily tracked from a averaging a few figures off their website. The results are going to vary widely and be something only the individual authors are likely to know (after considering the impact of the marketing across sales of all their work).

eggheadbooks1, your simplistic average relies on the idea that Bookbub can guarantee some minimal success to every book submitted to them (given their service model). That is never going to happen. Spending that much money will turn out to be a mistake for many - but that's not unusual. In some cases it may have been a predictable mistake (the book not well prepared), but in many others it will just be a matter of the book not finding an audience.

None of which is trying to endorse Bookbub in anyway. So far I don't market at all beyond my few posts of the self-promo forum here, but I don't see anything in what you (eggheadbooks1) have presented so far that suggests Bookbub are taking unfair advantage of authors (or, at least, no more than the many other commercial enterprises offering such services).