Page breaks

JLius · 03-19-2014, 10:09 AM

Dear all

I've been reading a lot about making epubs lately - been trying to make an epub myself. Sometimes it seems that the more I read about it, the less certain I become that I am doing it right.

So I've constructed my epub, starting from a docx and converting it with calibre. I cleaned up the css the best I can with my limited knowledge of css/html.
For every section of the book I have a separate html file (cover, titlepage, chapters, author-info, copyright etc). Most of them were already present with the conversion of the docx, some I added by splitting in calibre viewer. My reader (sony) starts a new page for every single html file - and that's good, cause that's wat I was aiming.

BUT: I'm reading about page-breaks (and chapter breaks, and section breaks...) and now I'm lost again. Do I need them? Do I need to add breaks in my epub (which I thought was finished... maybe not)? In other words: are there reading devices out there that will not behave like my sony and disregard the split files all togeter, so that there will be no break between chapters etc?

If so, dear forum members, what do I do to secure the structure of my epub novel? Do I add a {page-break-before:always;} (or chapter break? or...) in my css and apply it to h1 or whatever is at the beginning of a new page - when that is just a <p> I'll make a special page-break class for that right? Or is it unnecessary, can I rely on my split files to do the breaking?

Thank you in advance for your answer.

JLius

HarryT · 03-19-2014, 10:36 AM

You would normally use a separate HTML file per chapter. This will result in a each chapter beginning on a new page, which is the standard thing to do.

mrmikel · 03-19-2014, 10:43 AM

Generally you will get page breaks when you start on a new file section of the epub. It is about impossible to make them not break when you change files across all devices.

If you are using calibre for conversion, it automatically makes new files every 260k or so to avoid old readers like ours from barfing on too big files.

If you are trying to make the next novel consisting of one paragraph 300 pages long, you will not succeed consistently with epubs as they all handle it differently the newer devices being less sensitive. BUT giant files can slow any device down when it tries to format one giant file when it starts or if you change text size.

My experience is with my Sony, so Kindle people may chime in and tell you how it affects them...and there are a LOT of them. But if this is for you personally, then format it however you like.

HarryT · 03-19-2014, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmikel

My experience is with my Sony, so Kindle people may chime in and tell you how it affects them...and there are a LOT of them. But if this is for you personally, then format it however you like.

The Kindle doesn't have any hard limits on file size, but the same general principle applies: it's a very good idea to have a separate HTML file for each chapter, for performance reasons.

JLius · 03-19-2014, 11:25 AM

Okay, great, then I don't have to insert page-breaks in my css/html. Thanks everybody!

mrmikel · 03-19-2014, 11:56 AM

If you move away from the automatic conversion features of Calibre and use its book editor, you will have to break things up yourself. But the editor has a feature where you push a button, move over to the preview window and a green line appears at possible places. Click when you like. It is that easy. Sigil has a similar feature if you ever decide to fiddle with the code "under the hood."

JLius · 03-20-2014, 03:12 AM

Yes, I know. I prefer to do a conversion first, and then go fiddling with the code in Calibre's book editor. That way the chapters are allready broken into different files, saves me the work (not that splitting is that much work).
Don't use Sigil, I read they don't update anymore. Besides, everything can be done in Calibre as far as I know.

Toxaris · 03-20-2014, 04:16 AM

I still prefer Sigil, mainly because of the clips and saved searched. Although development has stopped, it works fine for me at the moment.
I never use the conversions from Calibre, as I don't like the conversions.
You mention that you use libreoffice. There is also a plugin for libreoffice to create an ePUB I believe. I don't know if that will split automatically. I know my add-in does if you want upon export, but since you don't use Word it is of no use for you.

JLius · 03-20-2014, 04:51 AM

Yes, libreoffice has writer2epub, but as far as I know development on that plugin has stopped also.
The problem with conversion from docx to epub with calibre is indeed als you described in another post (you know, the one where you had a minor collision with Covid Goyal), but I understand the compromises he had to make. The problem is not with calibre, but with the word-documents. Now it takes me about 5 hours to clean up the css/html. I guess by time I will get better/faster. Calibre also improves with every update (and there are many), so who knows, they might figure something out to facilitate the cleanup. So I'll stick with Calibre, cause it's very much alive, and Sigil will get outdated sooner or later.

Tex2002ans · 03-20-2014, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLius

Don't use Sigil, I read they don't update anymore. Besides, everything can be done in Calibre as far as I know.

Just because development is stalled (for the foreseeable future), does not magically make the software NOT useful any more.

Sigil is STILL the best EPUB editor out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxaris

I never use the conversions from Calibre, as I don't like the conversions.

Me neither. I would avoid using Calibre to convert a DOC/X unless it was used as an absolute last resort.

I would try my best to clean up the file in Word/Libreoffice first (using Toxaris's macro, or Writer2EPUB, etc. etc.), BEFORE trying to export it or use an outside conversion tool (like Calibre).

These tools will help strip the formatted text down to the bare bones of headers, simple paragraphs, alignment, bold/italics/superscript/subscript, .... which will cut down on A MASSIVE amount of the useless cruft that you then have to clean manually in the HTML afterwards to make a good/clean ebook.

Calibre's goal is more of a: Input -> Condense the code as best as it can -> Output
Toxaris + Writer2EPUB's goal is more of a: Input -> Clean/Strip code -> Output

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLius

Yes, libreoffice has writer2epub, but as far as I know development on that plugin has stopped also.

Writer2EPUB is still being updated. You can grab the latest versions from ebookLuke's site:

http://lukesblog.it/ebooks/ebook-tools/writer2epub/

And here is the MobileRead forum dedicated to Writer2EPUB:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=230

There is also a plugin called "PerfectEPUB" on his site which might help clean up certain files.

HarryT · 03-20-2014, 06:35 AM

You'll get much cleaner results by exporting from Word as "Filtered HTML" rather than converting a DOCX file.

JLius · 03-20-2014, 07:04 AM

Allright, thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely give them a try!

theducks · 03-20-2014, 10:39 AM

Another voice here

Just because development halts is not a reason you MUST immediately abandon use of working, non-cloud dependent, software.

Why the big push to run apps from the cloud? Because Installed software does not just stop working when they want to release a upgrade

The only cause for abandonment is when YOUR current hardware or OS no longer supports the requirements. (eg. Sigil no longer runs on my older AMD CPU). That box still has other uses (a big container

to hang drives and STORE backup files)

Tex2002ans · 03-20-2014, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

Just because development halts is not a reason you MUST immediately abandon use of working, non-cloud dependent, software.

Like Finereader 11 treated me well for years, and Finereader 12 came out about a month ago, and it is a "'lukewarm' update". Some things are better, some things are worse.

Just because development stopped on 11 doesn't magically mean that everyone should jump ship because it is trash and should be never touched again! (It is STILL damn good software that helped me digitize ~200 books).

Currently, if you are in the market for OCR, I would actually recommend purchasing Finereader 11 instead!

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

Why the big push to run apps from the cloud? Because Installed software does not just stop working when they want to release a upgrade

This whole "cloud software" thing that many companies are trying to push now (Adobe, Microsoft), no thanks!

I don't want to pay monthly/yearly fees for some proprietary software that I may have zero access to, and will break if I refuse to pay for their next "upgrade".

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

You'll get much cleaner results by exporting from Word as "Filtered HTML" rather than converting a DOCX file.

Indeed. I always forget this (since I don't use Microsoft Word).

In many cases, I actually prefer working from THIS exported code, than working from Calibre's "Calibre#", "block#", "text#" classes.

eschwartz · 03-20-2014, 07:34 PM

Sigil has one less advantage now that Kovid implemented saved searches into the calibre editor. And the calibre editor is faster, has proper support for   revision control, global undo and other goodies...

Sigil is no less useful than it used to be, of course. But at this point, the only advantages over calibre editor that I can think of are the spellcheck and clips, both of which will be coming to calibre at some point. And Book View, which I hope no one here relies on.

03-19-2014, 10:09 AM	#1
JLius Village idiot Posts: 157 Karma: 519566 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Belgium Device: sony PRS T-1	Page breaks Dear all I've been reading a lot about making epubs lately - been trying to make an epub myself. Sometimes it seems that the more I read about it, the less certain I become that I am doing it right. So I've constructed my epub, starting from a docx and converting it with calibre. I cleaned up the css the best I can with my limited knowledge of css/html. For every section of the book I have a separate html file (cover, titlepage, chapters, author-info, copyright etc). Most of them were already present with the conversion of the docx, some I added by splitting in calibre viewer. My reader (sony) starts a new page for every single html file - and that's good, cause that's wat I was aiming. BUT: I'm reading about page-breaks (and chapter breaks, and section breaks...) and now I'm lost again. Do I need them? Do I need to add breaks in my epub (which I thought was finished... maybe not)? In other words: are there reading devices out there that will not behave like my sony and disregard the split files all togeter, so that there will be no break between chapters etc? If so, dear forum members, what do I do to secure the structure of my epub novel? Do I add a {page-break-before:always;} (or chapter break? or...) in my css and apply it to h1 or whatever is at the beginning of a new page - when that is just a <p> I'll make a special page-break class for that right? Or is it unnecessary, can I rely on my split files to do the breaking? Thank you in advance for your answer. JLius

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03-19-2014, 10:36 AM	#2
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	You would normally use a separate HTML file per chapter. This will result in a each chapter beginning on a new page, which is the standard thing to do.

03-19-2014, 10:43 AM	#3
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	Generally you will get page breaks when you start on a new file section of the epub. It is about impossible to make them not break when you change files across all devices. If you are using calibre for conversion, it automatically makes new files every 260k or so to avoid old readers like ours from barfing on too big files. If you are trying to make the next novel consisting of one paragraph 300 pages long, you will not succeed consistently with epubs as they all handle it differently the newer devices being less sensitive. BUT giant files can slow any device down when it tries to format one giant file when it starts or if you change text size. My experience is with my Sony, so Kindle people may chime in and tell you how it affects them...and there are a LOT of them. But if this is for you personally, then format it however you like.

03-19-2014, 11:25 AM	#5
JLius Village idiot Posts: 157 Karma: 519566 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Belgium Device: sony PRS T-1	Okay, great, then I don't have to insert page-breaks in my css/html. Thanks everybody!

03-19-2014, 11:56 AM	#6
mrmikel Color me gone Posts: 2,089 Karma: 1445295 Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Central Oregon Coast Device: PRS-300	If you move away from the automatic conversion features of Calibre and use its book editor, you will have to break things up yourself. But the editor has a feature where you push a button, move over to the preview window and a green line appears at possible places. Click when you like. It is that easy. Sigil has a similar feature if you ever decide to fiddle with the code "under the hood."

03-20-2014, 03:12 AM	#7
JLius Village idiot Posts: 157 Karma: 519566 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Belgium Device: sony PRS T-1	Yes, I know. I prefer to do a conversion first, and then go fiddling with the code in Calibre's book editor. That way the chapters are allready broken into different files, saves me the work (not that splitting is that much work). Don't use Sigil, I read they don't update anymore. Besides, everything can be done in Calibre as far as I know.

03-20-2014, 04:16 AM	#8
Toxaris Wizard Posts: 4,520 Karma: 121692313 Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Heemskerk, NL Device: PRS-T1, Kobo Touch, Kobo Aura	I still prefer Sigil, mainly because of the clips and saved searched. Although development has stopped, it works fine for me at the moment. I never use the conversions from Calibre, as I don't like the conversions. You mention that you use libreoffice. There is also a plugin for libreoffice to create an ePUB I believe. I don't know if that will split automatically. I know my add-in does if you want upon export, but since you don't use Word it is of no use for you.

03-20-2014, 04:51 AM	#9
JLius Village idiot Posts: 157 Karma: 519566 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Belgium Device: sony PRS T-1	Yes, libreoffice has writer2epub, but as far as I know development on that plugin has stopped also. The problem with conversion from docx to epub with calibre is indeed als you described in another post (you know, the one where you had a minor collision with Covid Goyal), but I understand the compromises he had to make. The problem is not with calibre, but with the word-documents. Now it takes me about 5 hours to clean up the css/html. I guess by time I will get better/faster. Calibre also improves with every update (and there are many), so who knows, they might figure something out to facilitate the cleanup. So I'll stick with Calibre, cause it's very much alive, and Sigil will get outdated sooner or later.

03-20-2014, 06:35 AM	#11
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,544 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	You'll get much cleaner results by exporting from Word as "Filtered HTML" rather than converting a DOCX file.

03-20-2014, 07:04 AM	#12
JLius Village idiot Posts: 157 Karma: 519566 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Belgium Device: sony PRS T-1	Allright, thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely give them a try!

03-20-2014, 10:39 AM	#13
theducks Well trained by Cats Posts: 30,902 Karma: 60358908 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The Central Coast of California Device: Kobo Libra2,Kobo Aura2v1, K4NT(Fixed: New Bat.), Galaxy Tab A	Another voice here Just because development halts is not a reason you MUST immediately abandon use of working, non-cloud dependent, software. Why the big push to run apps from the cloud? Because Installed software does not just stop working when they want to release a upgrade The only cause for abandonment is when YOUR current hardware or OS no longer supports the requirements. (eg. Sigil no longer runs on my older AMD CPU). That box still has other uses (a big container to hang drives and STORE backup files)

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03-20-2014, 07:34 PM	#15
eschwartz Ex-Helpdesk Junkie Posts: 19,421 Karma: 85400180 Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Beaten Path, USA, Roundworld, This Side of Infinity Device: Kindle Touch fw5.3.7 (Wifi only)	Sigil has one less advantage now that Kovid implemented saved searches into the calibre editor. And the calibre editor is faster, has proper support for   revision control, global undo and other goodies... Sigil is no less useful than it used to be, of course. But at this point, the only advantages over calibre editor that I can think of are the spellcheck and clips, both of which will be coming to calibre at some point. And Book View, which I hope no one here relies on.