Kindle va Calibre vs Kindlegen

rstoothoff · 01-15-2013, 08:17 PM

Recently an e-book converted with Calibre from .epub to .mobi (both old and new), which looks good on both the Kindle Previewer and Kindle devices, has been rejected by Amazon, who say it must be generated through Kindlegen. I've tried using Kindlegen, both with the InDesign plug-in and with Kindle Previewer, but got an imperfect .mobi (one lacking the all-important Kindle TOC), whereas Calibre seems to deliver the goods. What's wrong?

DiapDealer · 01-15-2013, 08:33 PM

Are you asking why Amazon doesn't want you to use anything other than Kindlegen, or are you asking (in the calibre forum) why your Kindlegen-built mobi doesn't have a toc?

rstoothoff · 01-16-2013, 04:47 AM

I'm asking both questions, but in particular why the Calibre-generated .mobi/Kindle file is unacceptable. How does it differ from a Kindlegen-generated file? it looks good in the Kindle app and Kindle Previewer, in fact better than the Kindlegen-generated files.

DoctorOhh · 01-16-2013, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

I'm asking both questions, but in particular why the Calibre-generated .mobi/Kindle file is unacceptable. How does it differ from a Kindlegen-generated file? it looks good in the Kindle app and Kindle Previewer, in fact better than the Kindlegen-generated files.

The point is that neither question is a calibre forum question.

The reason Amazon is not accepting calibre generated ebooks is a question only Amazon can answer. It is their prerogative to handle their business the way they see fit. Anything we say is speculation.

Your question about kindlegen and why the output isn't to your liking should be asked in another forum, perhaps if the question was asked in the Kindle, Workshop or Mobi forums it would be both on-topic and have the expertise reading those forums to answer your question.

Obviously for personal use calibre is still #1.

Good Reading.

rstoothoff · 01-16-2013, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the advice, but I think the question IS appropriate for a Calibre forum. I had assumed that Calibre was designed to be used to convert from .epub to .mobi not only for "personal use" but also for submission to KDP. If so, then obviously the question is a Calibre forum question.

avantman42 · 01-16-2013, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

Recently an e-book converted with Calibre from .epub to .mobi (both old and new), which looks good on both the Kindle Previewer and Kindle devices, has been rejected by Amazon, who say it must be generated through Kindlegen. I've tried using Kindlegen, both with the InDesign plug-in and with Kindle Previewer, but got an imperfect .mobi (one lacking the all-important Kindle TOC), whereas Calibre seems to deliver the goods. What's wrong?

Does the rejection/error message give any other details? I've recently (within the past 10 days) uploaded a Calibre-generated .mobi file to KDP without any problems.

rstoothoff · 01-16-2013, 06:53 PM

The message from KDP says only
"I noticed that you have generated the mobi file using Calibre, and this is creating the problem. Please upload a mobi file generated using Kindlegen, and republish the title. It should then be available for sale."
No explanation of "the problem". When originally submitted, there as apparently no problem, for the book was made available for sale on the KDP website. I'll ask KDP for clarification.

avantman42 · 01-17-2013, 01:36 AM

That sounds like there's a problem with the .mobi file, and they're telling you to use Kindlegen because they don't want to (or can't) provide support for anything else.

Have you tried using Calibre to generate an ePub instead of a .mobi file, and uploading that?

rstoothoff · 01-17-2013, 07:01 PM

I didn't know you could upload an .epub to KDP - and, presumably, let them convert it to .mobi. That sounds good.

I've created three .mobi files of the book: (1) by exporting to .epub from InDesign, then converting to .mobi (both) in Calibre; (2) by feeding the .epub into Kindle Previewer and letting Kindlegen create the .mobi; and (3) by exporting to Kindle using the ID Export to Kindle plug-in. The first looks fine in the Kindle Previewer and Kindle app: fonts are embedded (for Kindle Fire) and it has a nice-looking TOC. The second looks OK too, but lacks a TOC. And the third looks awful: no embedded fonts in Kindle Fire (not even Arial!) and a terrible-looking TOC.

I've received a less-than-helpful reply from KDP:
"When you upload the MOBI file generated using Calibre, we cannot guarantee that it'll successfully go through the conversion and publishing processes. Some files might not have any problem going through the conversion and publishing processes, but we cannot guarantee all the files will be successful. For this reason we request you to upload a MOBI file generated using Kindlegen, and republish the title."

If KDP has a problem with some Calibre-generated .mobi files, but not others, then I should think this is a issue which the developers of Calibre ought to address.

user_none · 01-17-2013, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

I had assumed that Calibre was designed to be used to convert from .epub to .mobi not only for "personal use" but also for submission to KDP.

Conversion is for personal use. People can use the output for comercial purposes, there is nothing that prevents this. Many people do upload to services like KDP but that isn't the purpose of any conversion output. It has been and still is designed about reading books you own on devices you own.

One big reason for this stance (especially with a format like MOBI) is it's impossible to produce a 100% compliant file when dealing with a proprietary format. All information about MOBI has been reverse engineered and there is no way to know if something is missed. There is also the issue that Amazon can had has changed the format for no apparent reason other than to break tools like calibre.

Ultimately Amazon owns the publishing service, the format, the production tools, and the devices/software that reads the format. They control every aspect of the process and can require any arbitrary rules they want.

user_none · 01-17-2013, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

If KDP has a problem with some Calibre-generated .mobi files, but not others, then I should think this is a issue which the developers of Calibre ought to address.

MOBI is a format that is owned by Amazon. They're the only ones with information about how the format works and how to produce proper files. They don't share this information. As you've found they also don't share why they reject some MOBI files produced by calibre.

The only reason calibre can produce MOBI (and Amazon's other formats) files is due to reverse engineering. Only so much can be done by this method. Something will pretty much always be missed. It's even harder when no only is there is a closed service and review process involved.

Not to mention that Amazon has intentionally made changes to their software explicitly to break third party tools. They've done this multiple times and this is why I personally no longer do anything with Amazon formats or devices within calibre. If Amazon doesn't want calibre to work with them then I'm not going to waste time in a battle I'll never win. That said there are other calibre devs who still work on Amazon things. If you can get some reason about why KDP doesn't like I'm sure they will quickly make whatever changes are necessary to satisfy KDP.

rstoothoff · 01-18-2013, 01:02 AM

I'm grateful to user_none for that explanation. I hadn't realized that Calibre is not intended for "commercial" use. Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft and other Big Players are sometimes very annoying.

avantman42 · 01-18-2013, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

I didn't know you could upload an .epub to KDP - and, presumably, let them convert it to .mobi. That sounds good.

From the KDP help pages:

Quote:

Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) lets you upload and convert your final draft from several formats. For best results, we recommend that you upload in DOC/DOCX (.doc/.docx) or HTML (.html) format. Be sure to read through the tips below for your preferred format prior to publishing your work with KDP.

We accept the following formats:

Word (DOC or DOCX)
HTML (ZIP, HTM, or HTML)
Mobipocket (MOBI)
ePub (EPUB)
Plain Text (TXT)
Rich Text Format (RTF)
Adobe PDF (PDF)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstoothoff

I've created three .mobi files of the book: (1) by exporting to .epub from InDesign, then converting to .mobi (both) in Calibre; (2) by feeding the .epub into Kindle Previewer and letting Kindlegen create the .mobi; and (3) by exporting to Kindle using the ID Export to Kindle plug-in. The first looks fine in the Kindle Previewer and Kindle app: fonts are embedded (for Kindle Fire) and it has a nice-looking TOC. The second looks OK too, but lacks a TOC. And the third looks awful: no embedded fonts in Kindle Fire (not even Arial!) and a terrible-looking TOC.

I converted to Mobi (old) in Calibre. I have no interest in embedding fonts, which may be what has caused your file to fail. A note of caution on embedding fonts, however. From this old thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Very limited. Most commercial fonts come licensed for a certain number of computers and/or printers, and forbid embedding in ebooks.

Font foundaries are excessively worried about people copying their fonts. I did ask Monotype about the cost for a distribution licence for fonts embedded in an ePub, and the cost was £1500 for up to five fonts, in up to five books, per year.

For chapter headings and other display type, I expect it's possible to find a free font that allows redistribution without too much difficulty. But finding the body text font that you want in a redistributable form is very hard.

rstoothoff · 01-18-2013, 02:31 AM

Thanks, Russell.

nickredding · 01-18-2013, 07:57 PM

Amazon probably looks at the "author" EXTH field and seeing "calibre" (or something other than what KindleGen puts in that field) rejects it. The solution is to stuff whatever Amazon wants to see into the author EXTH.

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01-15-2013, 08:17 PM	#1
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	Kindle va Calibre vs Kindlegen Recently an e-book converted with Calibre from .epub to .mobi (both old and new), which looks good on both the Kindle Previewer and Kindle devices, has been rejected by Amazon, who say it must be generated through Kindlegen. I've tried using Kindlegen, both with the InDesign plug-in and with Kindle Previewer, but got an imperfect .mobi (one lacking the all-important Kindle TOC), whereas Calibre seems to deliver the goods. What's wrong?

01-15-2013, 08:33 PM	#2
DiapDealer Grand Sorcerer Posts: 28,358 Karma: 203720150 Join Date: Jan 2010 Device: Nexus 7, Kindle Fire HD	Are you asking why Amazon doesn't want you to use anything other than Kindlegen, or are you asking (in the calibre forum) why your Kindlegen-built mobi doesn't have a toc?

01-16-2013, 04:47 AM	#3
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	I'm asking both questions, but in particular why the Calibre-generated .mobi/Kindle file is unacceptable. How does it differ from a Kindlegen-generated file? it looks good in the Kindle app and Kindle Previewer, in fact better than the Kindlegen-generated files.

01-16-2013, 02:29 PM	#5
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	Thanks for the advice, but I think the question IS appropriate for a Calibre forum. I had assumed that Calibre was designed to be used to convert from .epub to .mobi not only for "personal use" but also for submission to KDP. If so, then obviously the question is a Calibre forum question.

01-16-2013, 06:53 PM	#7
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	The message from KDP says only "I noticed that you have generated the mobi file using Calibre, and this is creating the problem. Please upload a mobi file generated using Kindlegen, and republish the title. It should then be available for sale." No explanation of "the problem". When originally submitted, there as apparently no problem, for the book was made available for sale on the KDP website. I'll ask KDP for clarification.

01-17-2013, 01:36 AM	#8
avantman42 Wizard Posts: 1,090 Karma: 6058305 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: UK Device: Kindle Paperwhite	That sounds like there's a problem with the .mobi file, and they're telling you to use Kindlegen because they don't want to (or can't) provide support for anything else. Have you tried using Calibre to generate an ePub instead of a .mobi file, and uploading that?

01-17-2013, 07:01 PM	#9
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	I didn't know you could upload an .epub to KDP - and, presumably, let them convert it to .mobi. That sounds good. I've created three .mobi files of the book: (1) by exporting to .epub from InDesign, then converting to .mobi (both) in Calibre; (2) by feeding the .epub into Kindle Previewer and letting Kindlegen create the .mobi; and (3) by exporting to Kindle using the ID Export to Kindle plug-in. The first looks fine in the Kindle Previewer and Kindle app: fonts are embedded (for Kindle Fire) and it has a nice-looking TOC. The second looks OK too, but lacks a TOC. And the third looks awful: no embedded fonts in Kindle Fire (not even Arial!) and a terrible-looking TOC. I've received a less-than-helpful reply from KDP: "When you upload the MOBI file generated using Calibre, we cannot guarantee that it'll successfully go through the conversion and publishing processes. Some files might not have any problem going through the conversion and publishing processes, but we cannot guarantee all the files will be successful. For this reason we request you to upload a MOBI file generated using Kindlegen, and republish the title." If KDP has a problem with some Calibre-generated .mobi files, but not others, then I should think this is a issue which the developers of Calibre ought to address.

01-18-2013, 01:02 AM	#12
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	I'm grateful to user_none for that explanation. I hadn't realized that Calibre is not intended for "commercial" use. Amazon, Google, Apple, Microsoft and other Big Players are sometimes very annoying.

01-18-2013, 02:31 AM	#14
rstoothoff Member Posts: 23 Karma: 10 Join Date: Aug 2012 Device: none	Thanks, Russell.

01-18-2013, 07:57 PM	#15
nickredding onlinenewsreader.net Posts: 324 Karma: 10143 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ & Victoria, BC Device: Kindle 3, Kindle Fire, IPad3, iPhone4, Playbook, HTC Inspire	Amazon probably looks at the "author" EXTH field and seeing "calibre" (or something other than what KindleGen puts in that field) rejects it. The solution is to stuff whatever Amazon wants to see into the author EXTH.

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