Amazon Does NOT Discriminate

[Refom1]

I've read a lot of rants from people screaming discrimination because a book they want isn't available in their country. These people are very ignorant of the publishing business. Amazon doesn't not sell to a certain country-they can't by law.

Copyright law and publishing rights can be very complex. When a book sells certain rights are purchased, such as First North American Serial Rights, First Reprint Rights, Anthology Rights, First British Rights, First European Rights, and so on. It's these rights that decide where a book can be published. For example if a publisher purchases the First NA Rights to a book, they and only they have the right to publish the book in North America.

Books that only have First North American Rights can't be published in Europe, and books that only have First European Rights, can't be published here. For a book that was published here with First NA Rights to be made available in say, Romania, a publisher in Europe would have to purchase First European Rights.

Amazon can not LEGALLY sell a book to a country that doesn't have publishing rights. It's frustrating I'm sure, but ripping Amazon apart for it and accusing them of discriminatory practices is just wrong.

If you want a book not available in your country, lobby the publishing companies there to pick up the publishing rights!

[karunaji]

Just because they comply with the law, it doesn't mean that they don't discriminate. They do not do it on their own volition. They would probably gladly sell every book to everyone but they are unwilling participants of obsolete and unjust system of regional rights.

In the e-book world it makes no sense to each country to get publishing rights. And neither for many old and rare paper books that are practically out of print and not yet converted into e-format. The market is simply too small for most countries. The copyright agreements are the actual problem and it should be reformed.

[Refom1]

You are correct about the copyright agreements, but that's beyond Amazon's control, so blaming them and bashing them isn't right.

[DMB]

Originally Posted by Sue7M3

I've read a lot of rants from people screaming discrimination because a book they want isn't available in their country. These people are very ignorant of the publishing business. Amazon doesn't not sell to a certain country-they can't by law.

Copyright law and publishing rights can be very complex. When a book sells certain rights are purchased, such as First North American Serial Rights, First Reprint Rights, Anthology Rights, First British Rights, First European Rights, and so on. It's these rights that decide where a book can be published. For example if a publisher purchases the First NA Rights to a book, they and only they have the right to publish the book in North America.

Books that only have First North American Rights can't be published in Europe, and books that only have First European Rights, can't be published here. For a book that was published here with First NA Rights to be made available in say, Romania, a publisher in Europe would have to purchase First European Rights.

Amazon can not LEGALLY sell a book to a country that doesn't have publishing rights. It's frustrating I'm sure, but ripping Amazon apart for it and accusing them of discriminatory practices is just wrong.

If you want a book not available in your country, lobby the publishing companies there to pick up the publishing rights!

I think most people here are aware of all this. It doesn't stop us from being annoyed about the way the law works for ebooks.

Amazon will happily sell dt books across international borders but you can then find that the self-same book in eformat is restricted. Of course, that's not Amazon's fault, any more than the different tax regimes for the different formats are. It's still bloody irritating.

[karunaji]

The idea is that Amazon being a multinational company with hordes of lawyers and cash in bank accounts are in much better position to lobby for global rights than a poor student in Romania. Even as a country Romania has more immediate concerns than lobbying international laws. The unfortunate irony is that lack of access to books and information is hampering the development of those countries.

In other countries like India or Russia the government even tacitly approves piracy as a necessary step for country's development. That's their way of dealing with the problem but it is not true for the new EU members like Latvia or Romania. The EU deal is that piracy cannot be tolerated while the economy hasn't developed yet. The country might even still be banned from importing knowledge of new technologies from the US (as one US professor has explained).

[AnneT]

Originally Posted by Sue7M3

Books that only have First North American Rights can't be published in Europe, and books that only have First European Rights, can't be published here. For a book that was published here with First NA Rights to be made available in say, Romania, a publisher in Europe would have to purchase First European Rights.

And books that have First European Rights, and can be bought by Germans via Amazon.de, aren't available for... say Dutch or Belgian people.
I can't believe this isn't against the European legislation of 'free trafic of goods and services' within the EU...

[Mike L]

Sue, you are absolutely right, and your explanation is very clear. However, just to clarify one point: The restrictions to which you refer are not a matter of law. It's not illegal to sell a book outside the permitted region; rather, it's a matter of contract between the publisher and the seller. Nor is it connected with copyright.

However, your main point - that Amazon is not discrimating in this regard - is perfectly valid.

[gASK]

The law is seriously behind technology here to the point where it is getting ridiculous. I hope it will change soon, but - being a realist - I do not expect it to.

For example for many books I can buy and get delivered a PAPER copy of said book, while the ELECTRONIC copy gives me "Not available in your country" error. I have ordered quite a few books, both printed and electronic and I have yet to encounter a paper book Amazon is not willing to deliver to my doorstep. I have however encountered MANY electronic ones that I simply can not purchase.

For other "unavailable-in-Europe" goods, I can use my american friends to "resend" me the package. Or I can fly to America, buy it and take it home with me and nobody is gonna stop me. However with ebooks this is not possible.

Mailing to publishers gives me (at most) a form letter informing me that the book is not available right now and maybe it will be at some time and thank you for your interest etc etc...

[kindlekitten]

Originally Posted by karunaji

Just because they comply with the law, it doesn't mean that they don't discriminate. They do not do it on their own volition. They would probably gladly sell every book to everyone but they are unwilling participants of obsolete and unjust system of regional rights.

In the e-book world it makes no sense to each country to get publishing rights. And neither for many old and rare paper books that are practically out of print and not yet converted into e-format. The market is simply too small for most countries. The copyright agreements are the actual problem and it should be reformed.

you simply need to get over your pitiful self

Originally Posted by gASK

The law is seriously behind technology here to the point where it is getting ridiculous. I hope it will change soon, but - being a realist - I do not expect it to.

For example for many books I can buy and get delivered a PAPER copy of said book, while the ELECTRONIC copy gives me "Not available in your country" error. I have ordered quite a few books, both printed and electronic and I have yet to encounter a paper book Amazon is not willing to deliver to my doorstep. I have however encountered MANY electronic ones that I simply can not purchase.

For other "unavailable-in-Europe" goods, I can use my american friends to "resend" me the package. Or I can fly to America, buy it and take it home with me and nobody is gonna stop me. However with ebooks this is not possible.

Mailing to publishers gives me (at most) a form letter informing me that the book is not available right now and maybe it will be at some time and thank you for your interest etc etc...

and believe it or not, there are times that ebooks have not been available to those of us in the US

[jbcohen]

All excellent disucssion of copyrights, but I would like to add business practices to the mix. Let's compare Kobo to Amazon as they two companies have destinctly different approaches to selling of electronic book. kobo has group of servers that does all of the sales of books to anyone anywere while amazon has some servers in the US that sell to american customers and servers in the UK that sell to brittish customers and other servers that sell to a specific country. Therefore, I believe, that Amazon is more likely to run into copyright problems then Kobo is becuase of how the company has decided to regionalize their sales servers. I have yet to hear from anyone that Kobo refused to sell them the book of these choice. Not real sure how Kobo has managed to get around copyright laws but it appears that they have managed the task.

[RainingLemur]

Originally Posted by Sue7M3

You are correct about the copyright agreements, but that's beyond Amazon's control, so blaming them and bashing them isn't right.

Scapegoats: Everyone has to have one.

[abookreader]

Location of the servers is irrelevant because it is the location of the buyer which dictates availability. Kobo most certainly does sort availability by country of the buyer, the same as Amazon and Books on Board and every other retailer who needs to adhere to the regulations.

I think asking the common buyer to comprehend "It isn't Amazon, it's (fill in the blank of the Publisher) likely goes far beyond their interest in the matter. All they know or care is that they 1. Have money and 2. Want to buy a book and 3. Have been told no. Of course they blame Amazon because they are on Amazon's website. And you know - they are the buyer. It really isn't their duty to research boilerplate Publishing contracts.

The frustrating part to me is how little has been done over the past 2 to 3 years to make worldwide availability the standard going forward. As of yet the Publishing Industry is still wildly unenthusiastic of adopting to a global marketplace.

[karunaji]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

and believe it or not, there are times that ebooks have not been available to those of us in the US

Don't worry. When there is a book that you want but can't get it in the US, I will always help you to get it if available in my country.

[gASK]

Originally Posted by kindlekitten

and believe it or not, there are times that ebooks have not been available to those of us in the US

Yeah, I know about that. What I wrote still applies, just switch countries.

(I could still whine how we get the shorter end of the stick here, but meh. This thread is not about that )

[Alissa]

Originally Posted by Sue7M3

I've read a lot of rants from people screaming discrimination because a book they want isn't available in their country. These people are very ignorant of the publishing business. Amazon doesn't not sell to a certain country-they can't by law.

Is it really a law? I'm very suspicious on the point; I guess it is just a business practice.

As far as I understand, the old practice of the publishing business is something like: to print on a paper and sell the paper. I appreciate Amazon on the point that it broke the out-of-date business practice. Hence, I hope Amazon to break another silly practice.

I'm living in Japan and I know we have no such laws in Japan. All of those rights are in Japan too, but they are just practicies in the publishing industry.

If some country has such a law, then it should be a result of a choice of the citizens of that country, as far as it is a democratic country. It's not a pity that citizens who made a bad choice get some difficulty...