What structure do you use?

[crich70]

I was wondering which plot structure many here who write use for their fiction. I mean there is 3 act structure, 5 act structure, hero's journey, and I imagine others that I can't even begin to think about at the moment.

[Prestidigitweeze]

I'd go insane sticking to one particular structure.

Besides which, the "hero's journey" as commonly adapted for commercial use is based on a Disney memo on Star Wars as analyzed by a foont named Vogler who wished to half-include Joseph Campbell's theories in The Hero with a Thousand Faces so as to introduce that quasi-mystical, quasi-Jungian variable which lapsed gnostics and wistful agnostics know and crave -- all of which has been used and recycled so often that post-Journey movies all feel like processed pudding delivered in the same familiar box.

I try to modify and destroy familiar structures whenever possible (unless I'm co-writing a screenplay and being forced to adhere).

[mr ploppy]

I don't really have a plot, just random stuff that happens. The "hero" does go on a train at one point though. So put me down for hero's journey.

[Native]

The question initially gives me a knee-jerk reaction: "Don’t fence me in" - with some pasted-on structure. But of course we're all products of our environment/structure, and if our writing reflects our personality, it's an interesting introspection. I usually start with the desired end effect, and keep inventing causes until I come to the beginning. Weird.

[crich70]

Touche. I probably should have worded the header as "what structure do you use most often" since no two stories are likely to be alike in their creation.

[Prestidigitweeze]

A more flexible question might be, how do you think about structure? I'll pretend you asked; if that seems impolite or bothers you in any way, then please accept my apologies.

I often start with a question, as I expect Victor Hugo did. I picture him asking himself: How might I construct an entire novel around the repercussions of someone stealing a single loaf of bread?

In that sense, stories can be like puzzles for me.

I tend to be anal about resolving threads, which does generate a certain formalism. I also began as a composer, so I like the idea of a novel that contains smaller forms within itself, rather like a numbers opera.

One novelist I know, a horror writer who studied with Paul Bowles and worked in an emergency room for several years, begins every chapter by consulting an outline. Then he violates his outline with the chapter he's writing, after which he rewrites the outline all over again. He's had about five books published so far and they've mostly done quite well, with blurbs from people like James Ellroy.

It seems more like a compulsive ritual than an approach to form, but then Hemingway got into the mood by sharpening pencils, so at least my friend's method actually pertains to structure.

[crich70]

No need to worry about that. I started the thread both out of curiosity and the desire to promote discussion and anything that does that is all to the good.

Originally Posted by Prestidigitweeze

A more flexible question might be, how do you think about structure? I'll pretend you asked; if that seems impolite or bothers you in any way, then please accept my apologies.

I often start with a question, as I expect Victor Hugo did. I picture him asking himself: How might I construct an entire novel around the repercussions of someone stealing a single loaf of bread?

In that sense, stories can be like puzzles for me.

I tend to be anal about resolving threads, which does generate a certain formalism. I also began as a composer, so I like the idea of a novel that contains smaller forms within itself, rather like a numbers opera.

One novelist I know, a horror writer who studied with Paul Bowles and worked in an emergency room for several years, begins every chapter by consulting an outline. Then he violates his outline with the chapter he's writing, after which he rewrites the outline all over again. He's had about five books published so far and they've mostly done quite well, with blurbs from people like James Ellroy.

It seems more like a compulsive ritual than an approach to form, but then Hemingway got into the mood by sharpening pencils, so at least my friend's method actually pertains to structure.

[DavidRM]

I can be a bit visual with my story structures.

Here's how I plotted my novel, The Summoning Fire.



Read more about that here.

Here's a similar graphic for how I built The Door to the Sky.



Read more about that here.

I don't get so visual about it these days. But I reserve the right.

-David

[jbcohen]

My advice to authors: keep the book focused in one direction and avoid switching the sceens. Keep the story focused and moving in one direction and avoid moving the time line backwards. Avoid a self contained prelude that does not relate to the story at all. Make chapters as long or as short as you need them to be but the chapters should be the sceen changes.

[wamerman]

Very interesting thread. For my last couple books I spent a lot of time brainstorming characters and plot in an outline form. Worked great the first time I did it. Now, though, I'm finding that because I've covered the major plot movements in the outline headers, I get stale and non-creative while moving the story from one header to another. The whole exercise of writing has turned into "how can I get these people from point A to point B so exciting scene C can happen?" I like the previous idea about violating the outline. I might have to give that a try.

[crich70]

Interesting. I would never have thought of that particular structure (in The Summoning Fire) though I guess it's logical enough. It certainly turns up in nature enough including in the golden section as described in "Donald in Mathmagicland" as I recall.

Originally Posted by DavidRM

I can be a bit visual with my story structures.

Here's how I plotted my novel, The Summoning Fire.



Read more about that here.

Here's a similar graphic for how I built The Door to the Sky.



Read more about that here.

I don't get so visual about it these days. But I reserve the right.

-David

[mcrow24]

I tend to do a 3 act format. However, by time I'm done it could be 3 acts with about 4-5 major sub acts and several minor offshoots. So, it could be 3-7 acts depending on what you call an act.

[ApK]

Not counting some forum posts, I haven't written fiction since I was in school, but if I started again, I'd probably try starting with a typical three act structure, a la most TV shows, because it has the straight-forward plot drive, and required story beats, so that I can use it as a boilerplate for the plot and not think too much about structure. As the story and details develop, I'd reserve the right to scrap that structure entirely.
I think I use the same concept when I try to write song lyrics, but in a fiction work of any substantial length, I'd expect the structure would, if anything, get more complex.
In a song, the structure will usually evolve to get simpler, perhaps one act, or more likely one scene within an act, from that three act structure.

I'm going to keep an eye on this thread to see if I get some ideas for uses of structure in helping me pin down a story to write. I keep having ideas but never flesh them out to a whole story line.

ApK

[James_Wilde]

Originally Posted by crich70

I was wondering which plot structure many here who write use for their fiction. I mean there is 3 act structure, 5 act structure, hero's journey, and I imagine others that I can't even begin to think about at the moment.

How about the Queen of Hearts structure: begin at the beginning, go on to the end, then stop. It's the last bit that has tripped up many people.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by James_Wilde

How about the Queen of Hearts structure: begin at the beginning, go on to the end, then stop. It's the last bit that has tripped up many people.

lol. Good one.