mdash - a good thing or not - in e-books

cybmole · 03-06-2011, 12:00 PM

having discovered the existence of this thing called mdash—and mastered how to use it—I am now having second thoughts.

given the narrow width of most e-book readers, there is an arguable case for revered to the - simpler - style of hyphen with spaces, as the line breaks are then less of a challenge to e-reader firmware.

kindle will not line break on either side of an mdash, so it resorts to breaking one word earlier in the sentence, which can lead to very short lines / ugly page layouts before / after the mdash construction.

what do others think & prefer ? is this another case when e-books and printed books style conventions may diverge in time.

maybe technically a soft break character can be placed alongside emdash or ndash but that seems like technical overkill ?

theducks · 03-06-2011, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

having discovered the existence of this thing called mdash—and mastered how to use it—I am now having second thoughts.

given the narrow width of most e-book readers, there is an arguable case for revered to the - simpler - style of hyphen with spaces, as the line breaks are then less of a challenge to e-reader firmware.

kindle will not line break on either side of an mdash, so it resorts to breaking one word earlier in the sentence, which can lead to very short lines / ugly page layouts before / after the mdash construction.

what do others think & prefer ? is this another case when e-books and printed books style conventions may diverge in time.

maybe technically a soft break character can be placed alongside emdash or ndash but that seems like technical overkill ?

I replace double 'Minus' with a single —
I don't use the in place of hyphens
IMHO only tiny phone screens should have the issue (and we all need to suffer because

) My 5" reader ends up with a layout in parity with a MMPB page.
If it was good enough to print on paper...
it should be fine in E-Ink

susan_cassidy · 03-06-2011, 01:47 PM

I find the em-dash to be much better looking than two hyphens, etc. I had one book where the formatting was messed up, and only one hyphen (no surrounding spaces) was substituted, and it was practically unreadable. I've never noticed a problem with line spacing, etc. You get used to the way line wrapping works on a Kindle, etc. very quickly, I found.

Jellby · 03-06-2011, 01:54 PM

In English, use either an em-dash or "space, en-dash, space", but no hyphens, please. In other languages, use whatever custom is most established. In any case, don't add specific "workarounds" for some reader or other. Maybe the Kindle doesn't break at em-dashes (bad for English, good for Spanish), but ADE does (good for English, bad for Spanish), and next month there could be another version that does a different thing...

If text width is actually a problem, the reader should use a font where the em-dash is shorter than usual, no need to change the book text.

cybmole · 03-06-2011, 02:10 PM

when I first encountered mdash - I thought that correct usage would add a space either side of it, but it seems correct usage is to place it between two words, with no whitespace.

if those two words happen to be long ( i.e. multi-syllable) there's not much scope for proper text justification on a 6 inch screen.

I find it a bit jarring so see only 1/2 a line - my 1st reaction is - there's a bad linefeed that needs fixing, then i realise it's due to mdash constructs on the following line

so something like this
paragraph—construction
sentence.

has to break after "this" to fit a small screen display.

what are the print rules - would a printed book linebreak on mdash if it needed to ?
I suppose I could swicth to ndash wih space either side if that is also considered "correct"

susan_cassidy · 03-06-2011, 05:12 PM

If they update the reader software to be smarter about em-dashes, and you have formatted strangely to get around a perceived bug, your text won't look as nice.

Jadon · 03-06-2011, 06:40 PM

I prefer an endash with spaces to either side of it over an emdash with none. Yes, it will have some issues – it can break such that a line starts with the dash – but it still looks better than the huge gap oft-produced with emdashes. Until most reading software can handle hyphenation, it's a choice one's stuck with.

cybmole · 03-07-2011, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susan_cassidy

If they update the reader software to be smarter about em-dashes, and you have formatted strangely to get around a perceived bug, your text won't look as nice.

can anyone say:
1. what conventions do printed book typesetters follow for line breaks around mdash.
2.what break rules should smarter e-reader software use - I know what Kindle does but what do other e-readers like e.g. sony do ?

Jellby · 03-07-2011, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

can anyone say:
1. what conventions do printed book typesetters follow for line breaks around mdash.
2.what break rules should smarter e-reader software use - I know what Kindle does but what do other e-readers like e.g. sony do ?

As far as I know, in English a linebreak at an em-dash (before or after) is allowed in general, and I've seen it in printed books. A linebreak should be avoided when the dash is at the end (or beginning) of a sentence.

the Professor was saying "—and he had breakfast (no linebreak before or after the dash)
or rather suffering fellows—" (no linebreak before or after the dash)
The Other Professor is—well, you won't like him (linebreak allowed)
And as to the "Pig-Tale"—which you have (linebreak allowed)

In Spanish the dash works more like a parenthesis, with space (or punctuation) at one side, and nothing on the other, a line break is only allowed where there is a space.

cybmole · 03-07-2011, 10:22 AM

so for (English) html, to be ultra-precise we should surround mdash with softbreaks except where preceded by or followed by a quote mark ..
or if that is too much hassle we just wait for e-reader firmware to get smarter ?

( & that's assuming that Kindle even understands softbreaks )

ldolse · 03-08-2011, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cybmole

so for (English) html, to be ultra-precise we should surround mdash with softbreaks except where preceded by or followed by a quote mark ..
or if that is too much hassle we just wait for e-reader firmware to get smarter ?

( & that's assuming that Kindle even understands softbreaks )

What softbreak character are you referring to? The only unicode character I could see is "break permitted here" U+0082, but I can't find any evidence that this is commonly used in web/ebook authoring, so support for it may be spotty.

Jellby · 03-08-2011, 03:25 AM

I'd use the zero-width space if I had to use anything, but last time I checked, my ePUB reader displayed a question mark instead. It might be a font problem, but I prefer badly broken lines than question marks.

cybmole · 03-08-2011, 03:54 AM

ok - so softbreak is not a workable idea - I admit I dont know much about softbreaks - I'd heard the term & i think have occasionally seen something in html code - <WBR> ?

Oldpilot · 03-09-2011, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jadon

I prefer an endash with spaces to either side of it over an emdash with none. Yes, it will have some issues – it can break such that a line starts with the dash – but it still looks better than the huge gap oft-produced with emdashes. Until most reading software can handle hyphenation, it's a choice one's stuck with.

I agree. I've been using the English style (space / endash / space) since I first discovered how badly the Kindle handled the American standard emdash. It looks good to me.

Having a line start or end with a dash is no problem. It happens in typeset books, though of course one would prefer the latter.

cybmole · 03-10-2011, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldpilot

I agree. I've been using the English style (space / endash / space) since I first discovered how badly the Kindle handled the American standard emdash. It looks good to me.

Having a line start or end with a dash is no problem. It happens in typeset books, though of course one would prefer the latter.

English style.. american standard... are there really such things ?

do you have a reference ?

i would have thought, but could be wrong that a book from amazon or rival will have the same styling whether it is bought from .com or from .co.uk ?

but if you are right about English style I'll feel good about retweaking my books ( as I'm English) !

03-06-2011, 12:00 PM	#1
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	mdash - a good thing or not - in e-books having discovered the existence of this thing called mdash—and mastered how to use it—I am now having second thoughts. given the narrow width of most e-book readers, there is an arguable case for revered to the - simpler - style of hyphen with spaces, as the line breaks are then less of a challenge to e-reader firmware. kindle will not line break on either side of an mdash, so it resorts to breaking one word earlier in the sentence, which can lead to very short lines / ugly page layouts before / after the mdash construction. what do others think & prefer ? is this another case when e-books and printed books style conventions may diverge in time. maybe technically a soft break character can be placed alongside emdash or ndash but that seems like technical overkill ?

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03-06-2011, 01:47 PM	#3
susan_cassidy Wizard Posts: 2,251 Karma: 3720310 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Device: Kindle, iPad (not used much for reading)	I find the em-dash to be much better looking than two hyphens, etc. I had one book where the formatting was messed up, and only one hyphen (no surrounding spaces) was substituted, and it was practically unreadable. I've never noticed a problem with line spacing, etc. You get used to the way line wrapping works on a Kindle, etc. very quickly, I found.

03-06-2011, 01:54 PM	#4
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,544 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	In English, use either an em-dash or "space, en-dash, space", but no hyphens, please. In other languages, use whatever custom is most established. In any case, don't add specific "workarounds" for some reader or other. Maybe the Kindle doesn't break at em-dashes (bad for English, good for Spanish), but ADE does (good for English, bad for Spanish), and next month there could be another version that does a different thing... If text width is actually a problem, the reader should use a font where the em-dash is shorter than usual, no need to change the book text.

03-06-2011, 02:10 PM	#5
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	when I first encountered mdash - I thought that correct usage would add a space either side of it, but it seems correct usage is to place it between two words, with no whitespace. if those two words happen to be long ( i.e. multi-syllable) there's not much scope for proper text justification on a 6 inch screen. I find it a bit jarring so see only 1/2 a line - my 1st reaction is - there's a bad linefeed that needs fixing, then i realise it's due to mdash constructs on the following line so something like this paragraph—construction sentence. has to break after "this" to fit a small screen display. what are the print rules - would a printed book linebreak on mdash if it needed to ? I suppose I could swicth to ndash wih space either side if that is also considered "correct"

03-06-2011, 05:12 PM	#6
susan_cassidy Wizard Posts: 2,251 Karma: 3720310 Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: USA Device: Kindle, iPad (not used much for reading)	If they update the reader software to be smarter about em-dashes, and you have formatted strangely to get around a perceived bug, your text won't look as nice.

03-06-2011, 06:40 PM	#7
Jadon Hermit Posts: 192 Karma: 9425 Join Date: Oct 2006 Device: Kindle Keyboard, Kobo Glo	I prefer an endash with spaces to either side of it over an emdash with none. Yes, it will have some issues – it can break such that a line starts with the dash – but it still looks better than the huge gap oft-produced with emdashes. Until most reading software can handle hyphenation, it's a choice one's stuck with.

03-07-2011, 10:22 AM	#10
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	so for (English) html, to be ultra-precise we should surround mdash with softbreaks except where preceded by or followed by a quote mark .. or if that is too much hassle we just wait for e-reader firmware to get smarter ? ( & that's assuming that Kindle even understands softbreaks )

03-08-2011, 03:25 AM	#12
Jellby frumious Bandersnatch Posts: 7,544 Karma: 19001583 Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spaniard in Sweden Device: Cybook Orizon, Kobo Aura	I'd use the zero-width space if I had to use anything, but last time I checked, my ePUB reader displayed a question mark instead. It might be a font problem, but I prefer badly broken lines than question marks.

03-08-2011, 03:54 AM	#13
cybmole Wizard Posts: 3,720 Karma: 1759970 Join Date: Sep 2010 Device: none	ok - so softbreak is not a workable idea - I admit I dont know much about softbreaks - I'd heard the term & i think have occasionally seen something in html code - <WBR> ?

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