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Old 01-10-2011, 01:17 PM   #1
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Question Which Caecilia Is It?
Linotype has four varieties of Caecilia. I am wondering which the Kindle actually uses as the default font.

Caecilia Light - Unlikely, since it's too low contrast.
Caecilia Standard - Just called "Caecilia."
Caecilia Bold - You'll understand below why I singled this out.
Caecilia Heavy - A Bold Bold or Extra-Bold font.

I demoed a Kindle against a Sony Reader (both Pearl) and remember there being a noticeably better contrast in the Kindle font. When I loaded Caecilia (standard) on my Reader, it really didn't give any greater contrast than Sony's default font.

However, I was able to create a higher contrast family by mixing Caecilia Bold and Caecilia Heavy. I used Caecilia Bold / Bold Italic for the Roman and Italic fonts, then used Caecilia Heavy / Heavy Italic for the corresponding Bold fonts. I am wondering if this is how Amazon does it also with the Kindle, as it results in a significant contrast improvement.

So I'm curious if Amazon uses just plain Caecelia by default, or do they "artificially" increase contrast by using the Caecilia Bold/Heavy mix as the default font.

-Pie
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:01 PM   #2
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Good day, EatingPie! Thanks for posting your thoughts. I have been wondering this same question.
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Old 01-29-2011, 12:13 PM   #3
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Maybe they made their own version of Caecilia.
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Old 01-29-2011, 01:30 PM   #4
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Quote:
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Maybe they made their own version of Caecilia.
Very, very, very unlikely for a variety of reasons including copyright infringement.

-Pie
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
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Very, very, very unlikely for a variety of reasons including copyright infringement.

-Pie
That's not necessary. They could had licensed the font with modification rights... or purchased an exclusive modification to the owner...
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:45 PM   #6
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That's not necessary. They could had licensed the font with modification rights... or purchased an exclusive modification to the owner...
Good point, and I'm glad to entertain the possibility. Is there any evidence of this? Extracting the font from the K3 and comparing it to Linotype's would be the answer.

My skepticism also lies in the fact that Caecilia already has a "normal' family and a "bold" family. They could have just used the "bold/heavy" combo to produce a family that gives a nice contrast bump. No extra charge.

Another possibility is optimizing the rendering software for Caecilia so that it creates a higher contrast render. Not sure how to test that theory.

The easiest answer is still to extract the font from a jailbroken Kindle. I'm curious if anyone has done so.

-Pie
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:55 PM   #7
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For the record, you can access the Kindle fonts here:

/usr/java/lib/fonts

You have to have a jailbroken Kindle. I'd publish them, but they're copyrighted.
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Old 02-03-2011, 08:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EatingPie View Post
However, I was able to create a higher contrast family by mixing Caecilia Bold and Caecilia Heavy. I used Caecilia Bold / Bold Italic for the Roman and Italic fonts, then used Caecilia Heavy / Heavy Italic for the corresponding Bold fonts. I am wondering if this is how Amazon does it also with the Kindle, as it results in a significant contrast improvement.
I confirm this seems to be what they have done. Thanks for the tip. I find this bold / heavy font kinda ugly, but oh so clear. Normal Caecilia just doesn't cut it after the bold / heavy. And the nasty Dutch Roman that comes with the 650? Yikes! What were Sony thinking? They add a pearl screen and install one crap font. Duh.
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:03 AM   #9
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I did a side-by-side with a Kindle a few days ago.

Either they have a variation of Caecilia that lies somewhere between the standard and bold families discussed on my first post, or they have optimized rendering. The font is definitely darker than than standard Caecilia, but lighter and "thinner" than the bold variant.

I also notice that the spacing is hugely different. I used a value of 1.4em for line-spacing in my ePUBs, thinking when I first did it that it was a crazy huge value. Turns out it's not even close to what the Kindle is using. The text is very spread out. I don't think it's quite at 2 em, but it has to be at least 1.7 em of line spacing!

Couple of final observations: something worthy of its own post. The Sony has a glossier screen than the Kindle. It's like the difference between a glossy and matte finish. It does not interfere with contrast; indeed, I thought the Sony had better contrast with their default font than the Kindle (previously, I'd thought the opposite). I know they are both Pearl displays, but side-by-side, there is an obvious difference.

-Pie
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Old 02-04-2011, 05:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Histerius View Post
Maybe they made their own version of Caecilia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EatingPie View Post
Very, very, very unlikely for a variety of reasons including copyright infringement.
They DID make their own version of Caecilia. At the very least they have modified Caecilia heavily, and they have bundled actual bitmaps inside the font file. Normally, the font is "hinted" or "instructed" - hinting is a short code in language similar to assembler for each letter that tells rendering engine how to round dimensions so the letter boundaries fall exactly to the pixel grid. This is absolutely crucial if you want to have text on a low resolution display(*) to look crisp, sharp and with highest possible contrast. Amazon went one step further and included actual hand tweaked, I believe(**), bitmaps for certain letter sizes (the default sizes)

I have used Font Matrix program to have a look at the actual Caecilia font copied from Kindle 3.

(*) Do not argue! 166dpi IS a very low resolution from a typographic point of view ;-)
(**) well, if you look at capital "T" the left and right "arms" of T are not symmetric, which is typical for hinted fonts. For some reason, that escapes me, auto-generated hinting info for typical T letter doesn't contain code to make sure that T letter is symmetrical. When you print the text using the same font in high resolution from Corel Draw, for example, the "T" is symmetrical. I would expect that hand optimized bitmaps should avoid this problem.
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Old 02-04-2011, 09:15 AM   #11
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Ironically I was just thinking the same thing about spacing last night while I was reading on my Kindle. I typically use a line-height of 1.2 or 1.3em in my EPUBs. I wish that Sony had as much user control over fonts as the Kindle does on the device rather than having to mess with your EPUBs. The Kindle has variable line spacing with 3 settings. I wonder which one you were comparing to, Pie? At medium it does seems a little larger than my typical settings. The large is really large. The small is a little small for me. i tend to read at medium on my Kindle.

I know what you mean about the screens. However, when I compare my 950 & K3 side-by-side, it seems to me that the K3 screen is glossier. Also fingerprints seem to show a little more on the Sony screen than the K3.
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Old 02-05-2011, 07:32 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kacir View Post
They DID make their own version of Caecilia. At the very least they have modified Caecilia heavily, and they have bundled actual bitmaps inside the font file. Normally, the font is "hinted" or "instructed" - hinting is a short code in language similar to assembler for each letter that tells rendering engine how to round dimensions so the letter boundaries fall exactly to the pixel grid. This is absolutely crucial if you want to have text on a low resolution display(*) to look crisp, sharp and with highest possible contrast. Amazon went one step further and included actual hand tweaked, I believe(**), bitmaps for certain letter sizes (the default sizes)

I have used Font Matrix program to have a look at the actual Caecilia font copied from Kindle 3.

(*) Do not argue! 166dpi IS a very low resolution from a typographic point of view ;-)
(**) well, if you look at capital "T" the left and right "arms" of T are not symmetric, which is typical for hinted fonts. For some reason, that escapes me, auto-generated hinting info for typical T letter doesn't contain code to make sure that T letter is symmetrical. When you print the text using the same font in high resolution from Corel Draw, for example, the "T" is symmetrical. I would expect that hand optimized bitmaps should avoid this problem.
Well, it certainly does look different than Caecilia on the Sony Reader, and I do not have the version from the Kindle. So your observations look like they eliminate the renderer (for the most part) and put the onus on the font itself.

Fortunately, I said "very, very unlikely"; it's always good to leave yourself an out when you can.

I would love to compare a copy from the Kindle to Linotype's Caecilia. Unfortunately, I didn't have time to Jailbreak the Kindle and access the font.

Nice job taking the font apart looking at it in such detail!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm_Girl View Post
Ironically I was just thinking the same thing about spacing last night while I was reading on my Kindle. I typically use a line-height of 1.2 or 1.3em in my EPUBs. I wish that Sony had as much user control over fonts as the Kindle does on the device rather than having to mess with your EPUBs. The Kindle has variable line spacing with 3 settings. I wonder which one you were comparing to, Pie? At medium it does seems a little larger than my typical settings. The large is really large. The small is a little small for me. i tend to read at medium on my Kindle.
I used whatever the out-of-box default was, because it was a brand new, never used (except turned on), Kindle. On top of that, owned by an avowed computer-phobe.

I actually liked the way the spacing looked. It seemed natural to me, appealing. But I didn't spend a lot of time reading, so I don't know if I would have kept liking it.

Quote:
I know what you mean about the screens. However, when I compare my 950 & K3 side-by-side, it seems to me that the K3 screen is glossier. Also fingerprints seem to show a little more on the Sony screen than the K3.
Very interesting! My thought was that either Sony used a coating of their own due to the new touch screen, or that they simply purchased a slightly different format of Pearl display from e-Ink, similar to how computer makers allow you to buy either glossy or matte displays on laptops.

I've had two separate experiences with a Kindle/Sony side-by-side, the last time at a focus group which involved two Sony models (not the 950). So it wasn't just some anomaly, but the full production run. Now I'm curious if the 950 has yet another screen "type."

-Pie
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Old 02-15-2011, 11:45 PM   #13
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Pie, I was reading a review earlier this week (can't remember if it was about the 350 or 650). The reviewer noted that the Sony had a glossier screen than the Kindle. I wouldn't have thought that the 950 would be any different than the other models. I have now had the chance to compare the 350, 950 & K3 side-by-side. I think I would have to rank them from most to least glossy as 350, K3 and then 950. Interesting! I think the 350 and K3 are very close.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:18 AM   #14
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The K3 has the following fonts

Linotype - Helvetica Neue LT 65 Kindle Medium - 1.10
Linotype - Helvetica Neue LT 66 Kindle Medium Italic - 1.10
Linotype - Helvetica Neue LT 75 Kindle Bold - 1.10
Linotype - Helvetica Neue LT 76 Kindle Bold Italic - 1.10
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 65 Medium - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 66 Medium Italic - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 67 Kindle Cond Medium - 5.11 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 68 Kindle Cond Medium Italic - 5.10 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 75 Bold - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 76 Bold Italic - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 77 Kindle Cond Bold - 5.11 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 78 Kindle Cond Bold Italic - 5.10 Kindle
James Kass - Code2000 - 1.17 <--- Shareware font?
Kothay Gabor - KindleBlackboxC-Bold - 3.000
Kothay Gabor - KindleBlackboxC-BoldItalic - 3.000
Kothay Gabor - KindleBlackboxC-Italic - 3.000
Kothay Gabor - KindleBlackboxC-Regular - 3.000
Lab 126 (Amazon) - Kindle MonospaceSymbol - 2.00 August 21, 2008
Lab 126 (Amazon) - Kindle Symbol - 2.00 August 21, 2008
Monotype - HangulGothicMTC-Medium_E - 3.01
Monotype - HangulGothicMTC-Medium_E Bold - 3.01
Monotype - HeiseiMaruGoth_JIS0213_E - 1.02
Monotype - HeiseiMaruGoth_JIS0213_E Bolt - 1.02
Monotype - MHeiGB18030C-Medium_E - 2.01
Monotype - MHeiGB18030C-Medium_E Bold - 2.01
Monotype - MHeiC-Medium-Big5HKSCS_E - 2.01
Monotype - MHeiC-Medium-Big5HKSCS_E Bold - 2.01
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Old 02-16-2011, 02:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
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Pie, I was reading a review earlier this week (can't remember if it was about the 350 or 650). The reviewer noted that the Sony had a glossier screen than the Kindle. I wouldn't have thought that the 950 would be any different than the other models. I have now had the chance to compare the 350, 950 & K3 side-by-side. I think I would have to rank them from most to least glossy as 350, K3 and then 950. Interesting! I think the 350 and K3 are very close.
A long look at the e-Ink web site gave me a bit of info, but nothing absolutely conclusive. They refer to the "E INK PEARL IMAGING FILM," which is the layer BELOW the screen's "glass." (I'm saying glass, but it may be plastic.) This means they can put a different glass screen on top of the e-ink film layer and still call the thing "Pearl. It must simply be that Sony and Amazon ordered different glass to go over the e-Ink film layer, and Sony chose something completely different for the 950.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiersten
The K3 has the following fonts
...
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 65 Medium - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 66 Medium Italic - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 67 Kindle Cond Medium - 5.11 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 68 Kindle Cond Medium Italic - 5.10 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 75 Bold - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 76 Bold Italic - 5.00 Kindle beta release
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 77 Kindle Cond Bold - 5.11 Kindle
Linotype - PMN Caecilia LT 78 Kindle Cond Bold Italic - 5.10 Kindle...
Thanks for the list!

Given the version numbers, and the "Kindle" in some of the family names, this points to it being an Amazon-specific version. The other possibility is that the Caecelia I had borrowed (I had to promise to delete after a few weeks, which I did), is just an earlier version. But I think the former explanation is more likely, and that Amazon optimized the font for the e-Ink display... or payed Linotype to do it for them exclusively.

-Pie
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