Semantics

[crutledge]

Vallorick,
This may violate all of the "holy tenents" of ePub and Sigil.

An addition to allow the user to add semantics would simplify the making of MOBI without editing the content.opf file. This by itself would remove a lot of work. Once the MOBI file is built, I reopen the Sigil file and remove the Table of Contents.xhtml and every thing is kosher.

This would allow also a connection to kindlegen to produce a full-up MOBI file. This would easily fulfill the intent to eventually get to building MOBI files from Sigil. Kindlegen would be maintained by Amazon removing any future effort on your part.

This might even make HarryT happy.

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by crutledge

An addition to allow the user to add semantics would simplify the making of MOBI without editing the content.opf file. This by itself would remove a lot of work. Once the MOBI file is built, I reopen the Sigil file and remove the Table of Contents.xhtml and every thing is kosher.

What exactly are you requesting? The "Semantics" sub-menu in Sigil's Book Browser maps to various functionality in epub.

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Valloric

What exactly are you requesting? The "Semantics" sub-menu in Sigil's Book Browser maps to various functionality in epub.

The means of adding semantics, e.g. Start Reading, not presently listed in Sigil.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by crutledge

The means of adding semantics, e.g. Start Reading, not presently listed in Sigil.

Crutledge:

Simply use "text." Works a treat in MOBI conversions via KindleGen, in lieu of "start." Whatever page you indicate as the "text" page = "start" for Mobi.

Hitch

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Crutledge:

Simply use "text." Works a treat in MOBI conversions via KindleGen, in lieu of "start." Whatever page you indicate as the "text" page = "start" for Mobi.

Hitch

That's exactly what I do. But "TEXT" is not "START READING." I edit the content.opf to change "TEXT" to "START READING." Seems sloppy to just let "TEXT" stand. Especially when the solution is so simple.

In addition, the call to kindlegen could be automated in Sigil and for a small effort (tounge in cheek) a full ePub/MOBI tool is available.

[Valloric]

Originally Posted by crutledge

The means of adding semantics, e.g. Start Reading, not presently listed in Sigil.

"Semantics" is a word I picked for the feature of adding whatever semantic information could be added to a file in the BB. The only "semantics" that exist are the ones I make up . For instance, some of the semantic actions map to OPF <guide> element types, some map to special meta elements (like what's used to mark an image as the cover for iBooks etc.). Future one's could map to something else entirely. So when you ask me for "semantics" not present in Sigil but present elsewhere, that doesn't make any sense to me.

If you're talking about about different OPF <guide> element types like the ones used in mobi (I think this is what you're asking for), then no. The ones that are on offer are the ones that are listed in the epub spec.

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Valloric

If you're talking about about different OPF <guide> element types like the ones used in mobi (I think this is what you're asking for), then no. The ones that are on offer are the ones that are listed in the epub spec.

epub spec "HOLY" "HOLY" "HOLY"

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by crutledge

That's exactly what I do. But "TEXT" is not "START READING." I edit the content.opf to change "TEXT" to "START READING." Seems sloppy to just let "TEXT" stand. Especially when the solution is so simple.

In addition, the call to kindlegen could be automated in Sigil and for a small effort (tounge in cheek) a full ePub/MOBI tool is available.

Crutledge:

There are some things that make me whacky, and some that don't. The idea that I choose to use "text" to mark where the reader starts reading, which works for both major platforms, does NOT bother me. For all intents and purposes, "text" does equal "start reading," in any sense of the usage; what on earth would we mark as "text" that doesn't equate to that? I convert virtually every epub I make to a MOBI, and I'm pretty happy with having one bloody piece of guide that works in both. It's a big enough PITA to have to screw around with removing the cover, blah-blah, to prevent the ubiquitous duplicate cover KindleGen issue.

AFAI am concerned, it ain't broke, let's not fix it. JMHO, and worth what you've paid for it. ;-)

Hitch

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Crutledge:
AFAI am concerned, it ain't broke, let's not fix it. JMHO, and worth what you've paid for it. Hitch

WOW!!!

I had no intention of pulling anyone's chain in this holiday season.

I have worked many years with specifications and requirements which by definition are the minimum capabilities to be implemented. The use of any enhancements incorporated is up to the user. That is why I have dropped the Calibre version of Mobi. Finding kindlegen was great.

The ability of the user to add additional semantic entries to the GUIDE without having to edit content.opf seems to me to no way violate the ePub spec. Valloric has already stated his intention of implementing MOBI with Sigil eventually. The simplest way to do this is to build an interface to kindlegen. Let Amazon maintain kindlegen and MOBI.

It's been 20 years since I have done any programming in C++ and my knowledge of the windows OS is sadly minimal. So i'm not qualified to build this interface. Doing it in ADA, which I have always considered the biggest con ever perpetrated on the US Govt, would be sinful.

So, I carry two versions of each file. One containing the inline toc and loi and one straight ePub. The MOBI works for all MOBI RS to include MobiPocketReader for Win Mobile.

Strangly, the display of the cover as the First Page doesn't bother me.

So, if I caused you any gastric discomfort, I apologize. My first thinking is not always complete.

I do wish you, yours, and all of the Sigil community a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.



P.S. The ability of the user to add semantics would be just that. An add selmantic option would appear in the semantics menu and the user would enter the desired string. From that point on the string could be used as any other semantic selection. Not an official semantic in Sigil.

Charlie

[Hitch]

Crutledge:

No gastric distress that I know of, and I wasn't in any way "distressed" by your post or suggestion. I already have to jump through hoops to make my epubs convert to MOBI, e.g., dropping "float" for images and all that good happy....so I guess, to me, the fact that "text" works in lieu of "start reading" seems so nominal that I don't understand why it matters.

Yes...that's what I don't understand, I think; if "text" works and you set it for your epub, anyway, why does the difference matter? Maybe that will help me crystallize my own thinking on the topic, if you can clarify why the actual textual difference matters--the the guide says "start reading" instead of "text." ?

Best,

Hitch

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Crutledge:

No gastric distress that I know of, and I wasn't in any way "distressed" by your post or suggestion. I already have to jump through hoops to make my epubs convert to MOBI, e.g., dropping "float" for images and all that good happy....so I guess, to me, the fact that "text" works in lieu of "start reading" seems so nominal that I don't understand why it matters.

Yes...that's what I don't understand, I think; if "text" works and you set it for your epub, anyway, why does the difference matter? Maybe that will help me crystallize my own thinking on the topic, if you can clarify why the actual textual difference matters--the the guide says "start reading" instead of "text." ?

Best,

Hitch

As strange as it may seem. I go through the same gyrations as you to make an ePub that will translate well into MOBI. Floating images, drop caps, images for first char, etc. all go by the wayside. The major difference is that I don't have to deliver an ePub version with all the bells and whistles. The formatting of the ePub and the MOBI are essentially the same except ePub does not contain the inline toc and loi. I'm always looking for better and easier ways of diong things and have been considering two different formats. But in most cases, I have not seen that the fancy formatting adds much to the book.

So after all the editing and changing, I want a full-up MOBI. Not close, not almost, but a MOBI that is exactly the same as if I built the HTML strictly for MobiPocketCreator. My major problem with Calibre which is in itself a fine tool.

I guess I'm anal, but leaving Text in place of Start Reading seems to make all the other effort moot.

We each have our sore spots. I'm just glad that I'm not trying to make a living with eBooks. I wish you the best of luck with the customer who always knew how to do my job better than I. I enjoy my hobby.

Charlie

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by crutledge

I guess I'm anal, but leaving Text in place of Start Reading seems to make all the other effort moot.

If I understand it correctly, your problem is with KindleGen (or whatever you use to convert ePUB to Mobi). Apparently it needs a non-compliant ePUB to create a compliant Mobi, and this is wrooooong.

The "easy" solution is not using KindleGen, but something better. It need not be a whole new program, but just a little script that does what you need:

0.5) Copy the input compliant ePUB to a temporary file.
1) Modify the temporary file to change "Text" into "Start Reading". Since an ePUB is just zipped text files, it shouldn't be too complicated.
2) Convert the modified temporary file to Mobi with KindleGen.
2.5) Delete the temporary file.

Call the script KindleGenPlus, and use KindleGenPlus from now on

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Jellby

If I understand it correctly, your problem is with KindleGen (or whatever you use to convert ePUB to Mobi). Apparently it needs a non-compliant ePUB to create a compliant Mobi, and this is wrooooong.

The "easy" solution is not using KindleGen, but something better. It need not be a whole new program, but just a little script that does what you need:

0.5) Copy the input compliant ePUB to a temporary file.
1) Modify the temporary file to change "Text" into "Start Reading". Since an ePUB is just zipped text files, it shouldn't be too complicated.
2) Convert the modified temporary file to Mobi with KindleGen.
2.5) Delete the temporary file.

Call the script KindleGenPlus, and use KindleGenPlus from now on

I don't know why everyone thinks that my problem is with kindlegen. If I have a problem with kindlegen is that it is a CmdLine utility and not a win gui. I use kindlegen on every epub compliant file. The following works fine: c:\kindlegen "book.epub". It will produce book.mobi with no problems. With my vision and typing skills that's an accomplishment. If I accept "Text" in lieu of "Start Reading" then there is no problem.

This discussion started when I asked Valloric if he would add the capability for the user to add semantic items as desired to the semantic list. His reply was "NO." Not in the ePub spec.

Providing MOBI capability from Sigil seems straight foward by using a call to kindlegen. Except for "Start Reading", all necessary semantics seem to be present.

My present procedures are as follows;
1. produce a Sigil file with TOC and LOI.
2. Unzip Sigil file.
3. Edit content.opf to change "Text" to "Start Reading" and save.
4. Call c:\kindlegen content.opf
5. Rename content.mobi and save
6. Restart Sigil and remove TOC and LOI and save.
7. Working folder now contains book.epub (no toc and loi) and book.zip(w/ toc and loi).

book.epub passes Flight Crew.

I'm sure someone out there in Sigil land can make a tool which can do this simply and quickly. I have neither the tools or knowledge to do it. It would have to work with Win, Linux, and Mac.

Thank you for your attention and "FINI."

Charlie

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by crutledge

If I accept "Text" in lieu of "Start Reading" then there is no problem.

Just to be clear, do you want the "Start Reading" in the "type" or in the "title" on the guide element? In other words, would this do what you want?:

<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Chapter-1.xhtml"/>

(see here)

or do you need this:

<reference type="start" title="Start Reading" href="Chapter-1.xhtml"/>

(see here)

This discussion started when I asked Valloric if he would add the capability for the user to add semantic items as desired to the semantic list. His reply was "NO." Not in the ePub spec.

Valloric said "NO" to the second, because that would be breaking the ePUB spec (it does not allow "start" as type, but "text"). I'm sure he would be more than happy to allow the first, if it's not possible yet, as it's only defining a custom title for a guide element, which is spec-compliant.

To elaborate on my previous post: If KindleGen needs the second code to create what you want, KindleGen is behaving badly, as it should not require a non-compliant ePUB.

Providing MOBI capability from Sigil seems straight foward by using a call to kindlegen. Except for "Start Reading", all necessary semantics seem to be present.

It implies a call to an external program, which Valloric doesn't like. Other than that, KindleGen makes all kinds of changes to the source ePUB which are out of the user's control, and could lead to unexpected results. I can very well understand why this is not a desired feature for Valloric, a call to Calibre's ebook-convert would be more likely

[crutledge]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Just to be clear, do you want the "Start Reading" in the "type" or in the "title" on the guide element? In other words, would this do what you want?:

<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Chapter-1.xhtml"/>

(see here)

or do you need this:

<reference type="start" title="Start Reading" href="Chapter-1.xhtml"/>

(see here)

from
<reference type="text" title="Text" href="Text/CHAPTER_I.xhtml"/>

to
<reference type="text" title="Start Reading" href="Text/CHAPTER_I.xhtml"/>

If the reference type="text" is the semantic, then I'm still caught up in the meta language, and no change is needed to the semantics. Only a Title change is needed. Have I been chasing my tail agai?. I still need the ePub for Dummies.

I'm going to give <reference type="start" title="Start Reading" href="Chapter-1.xhtml"/> a try and see what happens.

I don't see that kindlegen does much to change things whereas Calibre apparently makes major changes.