Seriousness Nasa discovers a New form of life?

kennyc · 12-02-2010, 05:06 PM

A different type of DNA is what they are claiming. It would truly be unique and groundbreaking if true.... See:

Arsenic-Based Microbes Challenge Chemistry of Life
By ROBERT LEE HOTZ

Researchers on Thursday said they had created microbes that "very likely" use arsenic in their DNA in place of phosphorus, in what may be the first exception to the formula long thought to govern the basic chemistry of life.

Force-grown in the lab, the bacteria use the notorious poison to replace molecules of the element phosphorus in critical parts of their working biology, including in the spiral backbone of DNA, which is a crucial component for all known life, the researchers said. By depending on an element so toxic to normal life, the microbes are a living demonstration of the exotic substances that alien biochemistry might, in theory at least, use on other worlds.

"It is building itself out of arsenic," said geo-microbiologist Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA's Astrobiology Institute and the U.S. Geological Survey, who led researchers from eight federal and university laboratories conducting the experiment. "All life we know is the same biochemically, and this is a little different. It is suggesting there is another way to be alive."

Researchers today said they had created microbes that "very likely" use arsenic in their DNA in place of phosphorus, in what may be the first exception to the formula long thought to govern the basic chemistry of life. Lee Hotz has details.

The researchers conceded, however, that by themselves these odd microbes don't prove yet that there is a fundamentally different basis for life on Earth. "It is beginning to open the door a crack to possibilities," she said.

Several independent experts were convinced that these unusual organisms were not so far out of the ordinary. "This is an interesting curiosity, a novel discovery but not a paradigm-breaking one," said New York University chemist Robert Shapiro, an authority on DNA and the origin of life who was not involved in the project. "It is a cousin of known living things that has some peculiar habits."

Rest here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...897300342.html

and from FOX:
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ia/?test=faces

And the Science News article:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1202140622.htm

CazMar · 12-02-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyc

A different type of DNA is what they are claiming. It would truly be unique and groundbreaking if true....

It's in the Wall Street Journal and it's not April 1st so I guess this is probably an accurate report. We are really only starting to scratch the surface of exploring our universe. Compared to what we'll be able to see and measure in the next 20 years with some of the new telescopes and probes now coming online we know next to nothing about what is going on in our own galaxy, let alone the rest of the universe. But don't expect visits from aliens just yet - the distances are so vast and out of all the species on Earth only one can read a book! But I think we will definitely see evidence of life out there, even if it's only microbes.

ardeegee · 12-02-2010, 05:26 PM

Not a "new form of life" in that it is something unrelated to life as we know it. It is a member of the proteobacteria that has figured out a way to live using arsenic in the place of phosphorus in some (or many? or all?) places where it is normally used. An important finding, but no new kingdoms will come from it.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...d-proteins.ars

nyrath · 12-02-2010, 05:50 PM

This might have some impact in the future, since these organisms use Arsenic in place of Phosphorus.
Do a Google search for "Peak Phosphorus"

happy_terd · 12-02-2010, 06:28 PM

Good find guys!!!

ardeegee · 12-02-2010, 08:25 PM

Here's a good write-up by peeze:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...based_life.php

HarryT · 12-03-2010, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Not a "new form of life" in that it is something unrelated to life as we know it. It is a member of the proteobacteria that has figured out a way to live using arsenic in the place of phosphorus in some (or many? or all?) places where it is normally used. An important finding, but no new kingdoms will come from it.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...d-proteins.ars

Its importance, as far as life elsewhere in the universe is concerned, is that it opens up the very real possibility of life based on arsenic rather than phosphorus in places such as Saturn's moon Titan.

Donnageddon · 12-03-2010, 03:55 AM

I would be surprised to find that life which evolved separately from that on earth used the same mechanism and alphabet (DNA) to transmit genetic information.

And that is the most important part of this find, that the organisms seem to be able to substitute arsenic for the phosphorus in their DNA.

Donnageddon · 12-03-2010, 04:57 AM

If we found life on Mars, or Titan, or Europa, (or anywhere) this would be my (basic) questions:

Does the organism have a DNA (similar) structure?

Yes

Does the DNA have common genes with Earth's life tree?

Yes - then I suspect panspermia

No - then this adds evidence that DNA may be a common form in the universe for genetic information transfer

No

Wholly Krap! This opens up the ball game of life wide open!

kennyc · 12-03-2010, 07:25 AM

I just posted this in the Quotes thread:

"Perhaps the most extraordinary survival yet found was that of a Streptococcus bacterium that was recovered from the sealed lens of a camera that had stood on the Moon for two years."
-- Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything: Ch 20 Small World.

Which certainly says something about the panspermia (I hate that term)/life from space possibility.

HarryT · 12-03-2010, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donnageddon

And that is the most important part of this find, that the organisms seem to be able to substitute arsenic for the phosphorus in their DNA.

That is the reason that arsenic is poisonous to most living creatures - it is very easily substituted for phosophorus in cells, but simply doesn't "work" in that role.

ardeegee · 12-03-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Its importance, as far as life elsewhere in the universe is concerned, is that it opens up the very real possibility of life based on arsenic rather than phosphorus in places such as Saturn's moon Titan.

Maybe-- and maybe not. All it proves is that it is possible for life that uses phosphorus to adapt to using arsenic. It doesn't prove that it is possible to start with arsenic in the first place. (There may or may not be some block to that-- we still don't know.)

Either way, I don't think this says much of anything about Life As We Do Not Know It, because I don't expect life out past the snow line to be even remotely like life on Earth-- it is like saying that, because we can put snow chains on a Mazda, this proves that there can be Mazdas on Pluto.

HarryT · 12-03-2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

Maybe-- and maybe not. All it proves is that it is possible for life that uses phosphorus to adapt to using arsenic. It doesn't prove that it is possible to start with arsenic in the first place. (There may or may not be some block to that-- we still don't know.)

Either way, I don't think this says much of anything about Life As We Do Not Know It, because I don't expect life out past the snow line to be even remotely like life on Earth-- it is like saying that, because we can put snow chains on a Mazda, this proves that there can be Mazdas on Pluto.

It's interesting, though, in that this is the first practical demonstration of any form of life that appears to be able to get by with arsenic in place of phosophorus, and shows that life COULD evolve with other biochemical compositions that those found on Earth. Of course, you're absolutely right in saying that it says nothing about such lifeforms actually existing, but the mere possibility of their existance is intruiging. As if complex arsenic chemistry were to be detected spectroscopically in a place like Titan, that would be a real "smoking gun"...

erictoma · 12-03-2010, 03:07 PM

I Never believe in NASA or National Geographic. I do believe in science not in propaganda.

kennyc · 12-03-2010, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erictoma

I Never believe in NASA or National Geographic. I do believe in science not in propaganda.

Would you like to define those terms?

12-02-2010, 05:06 PM	#1
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,897 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	Nasa discovers a New form of life? A different type of DNA is what they are claiming. It would truly be unique and groundbreaking if true.... See: Arsenic-Based Microbes Challenge Chemistry of Life By ROBERT LEE HOTZ Researchers on Thursday said they had created microbes that "very likely" use arsenic in their DNA in place of phosphorus, in what may be the first exception to the formula long thought to govern the basic chemistry of life. Force-grown in the lab, the bacteria use the notorious poison to replace molecules of the element phosphorus in critical parts of their working biology, including in the spiral backbone of DNA, which is a crucial component for all known life, the researchers said. By depending on an element so toxic to normal life, the microbes are a living demonstration of the exotic substances that alien biochemistry might, in theory at least, use on other worlds. "It is building itself out of arsenic," said geo-microbiologist Felisa Wolfe-Simon at NASA's Astrobiology Institute and the U.S. Geological Survey, who led researchers from eight federal and university laboratories conducting the experiment. "All life we know is the same biochemically, and this is a little different. It is suggesting there is another way to be alive." Researchers today said they had created microbes that "very likely" use arsenic in their DNA in place of phosphorus, in what may be the first exception to the formula long thought to govern the basic chemistry of life. Lee Hotz has details. The researchers conceded, however, that by themselves these odd microbes don't prove yet that there is a fundamentally different basis for life on Earth. "It is beginning to open the door a crack to possibilities," she said. Several independent experts were convinced that these unusual organisms were not so far out of the ordinary. "This is an interesting curiosity, a novel discovery but not a paradigm-breaking one," said New York University chemist Robert Shapiro, an authority on DNA and the origin of life who was not involved in the project. "It is a cousin of known living things that has some peculiar habits." Rest here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...897300342.html and from FOX: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ia/?test=faces And the Science News article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1202140622.htm Last edited by kennyc; 12-02-2010 at 05:14 PM.

12-03-2010, 04:57 AM	#9
Donnageddon Now you lishen here... Posts: 2,494 Karma: 479498 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle-ish Device: Sony PRS-650. Kobo Touch, Kindle Fire	If we found life on Mars, or Titan, or Europa, (or anywhere) this would be my (basic) questions: Does the organism have a DNA (similar) structure? Yes Does the DNA have common genes with Earth's life tree? Yes - then I suspect panspermia No - then this adds evidence that DNA may be a common form in the universe for genetic information transfer No Wholly Krap! This opens up the ball game of life wide open! Last edited by Donnageddon; 12-03-2010 at 05:02 AM.

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12-02-2010, 05:26 PM	#3
ardeegee Maratus speciosus butt Posts: 3,292 Karma: 1162698 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-350	Not a "new form of life" in that it is something unrelated to life as we know it. It is a member of the proteobacteria that has figured out a way to live using arsenic in the place of phosphorus in some (or many? or all?) places where it is normally used. An important finding, but no new kingdoms will come from it. http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...d-proteins.ars

12-02-2010, 05:50 PM	#4
nyrath Addict Posts: 281 Karma: 52007 Join Date: Jun 2010 Device: nook	This might have some impact in the future, since these organisms use Arsenic in place of Phosphorus. Do a Google search for "Peak Phosphorus"

12-02-2010, 06:28 PM	#5
happy_terd Banned Posts: 13,045 Karma: 10105011 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Finally made it to Walmart. Device: PRS 420	Good find guys!!!

12-02-2010, 08:25 PM	#6
ardeegee Maratus speciosus butt Posts: 3,292 Karma: 1162698 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-350	Here's a good write-up by peeze: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...based_life.php

12-03-2010, 03:55 AM	#8
Donnageddon Now you lishen here... Posts: 2,494 Karma: 479498 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Seattle-ish Device: Sony PRS-650. Kobo Touch, Kindle Fire	I would be surprised to find that life which evolved separately from that on earth used the same mechanism and alphabet (DNA) to transmit genetic information. And that is the most important part of this find, that the organisms seem to be able to substitute arsenic for the phosphorus in their DNA.

12-03-2010, 07:25 AM	#10
kennyc The Dank Side of the Moon Posts: 35,897 Karma: 119230421 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Denver, CO Device: Kindle2; Kindle Fire	I just posted this in the Quotes thread: "Perhaps the most extraordinary survival yet found was that of a Streptococcus bacterium that was recovered from the sealed lens of a camera that had stood on the Moon for two years." -- Bill Bryson - A Short History of Nearly Everything: Ch 20 Small World. Which certainly says something about the panspermia (I hate that term)/life from space possibility.

12-03-2010, 03:07 PM	#14
erictoma Banned Posts: 223 Karma: 126 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Montreal Quebec Canada Device: None	I Never believe in NASA or National Geographic. I do believe in science not in propaganda.

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