Where's the excitement?

Adam B. · 04-13-2007, 02:39 PM

I remember lurking in this forum the first few months after the iLiad came out. It was a buzz with people talking about the device, exploring, writing hacks and applications... Lately, there's a new topic every other day, and maybe 2 or 3 replies a day. A lot of the original owners seem to have dissapeared. Where'd the excitement go?

I know some people aren't happy with certain aspects of the company or the device. But other than the battery and calibration issues, what's there not to love about the iLiad? I do my best to bring new programs and features to the device, but I'm only one man.

Where are all the other linux users/programmers/hackers?

Maybe it's because we've got such a high-end device, but I'm jealous of the Sony forums. They've passed us in topics and viewers a long time ago...

Blue · 04-13-2007, 02:56 PM

Once they release the next iLiad (version two or whatever you wanna call it) I'll join your quest in building exciting apps

For now, I just enjoy reading these posts. ow and there are more then 2 or 3 replies each day

Bert · 04-13-2007, 02:57 PM

I think most people are reluctant to start hacking their iLiad until they are sure they can fix their device if they manage to brick it. And because there are so little people actually experimenting with the device, there isn't much to tell. Every time there is a new release by iRex the activity on the forum increases for a few days ... and fades out afterwards.

I myself won't try any hacking with my iLiad until I can unbrick it myself. I am a programmer myself (mainly c++/MFC), but don't know much about Linux. So until I'm sure I can fix it if I mess things up (and I'm sure I will), I will keep my hands of any development directly on the iLiad - I haven't even requested shell access yet.

vranghel · 04-13-2007, 02:58 PM

Yes, unfortunately it is true Adam. Seems that a lot of people stopped visiting this forum. There have been quite a few of annoyances over the months, and many couldnt take it anymore.

What's sadder still is that the original programmers/hackers have given up altogheter.

Still, now the forums are quite active, thanks to you. A couple months ago it was dead silence in here.

It seems that for most people the 'new toy' feeling has dissipated and/or have moved to the next thing/gadget. It's quite sad actually, because there is still so much untapped potential left in the iLiad.

Maybe once the reflash option is in place, there will be many more programmers, hacking away at the device with no fear of bricking.

Adam B. · 04-13-2007, 03:07 PM

I understand that the risk of bricking will dissuade many people. I myself had a scare just this afternoon. To be honest though, the average port doesn't touch the root file system, so the risk is very minimal. Programming and porting has brought back that "new toy" feeling to my iLiad. Not to mention that with every new project I try, I learn more about linux and application development. That's how I can justify doing a lot of this at work, it helps me be a better network admin.

Let's hope iRex can keep their proposed schedule for an April debricking option. Maybe that in addition to mobipocket support will help bring the forums to life again.

firekat · 04-13-2007, 03:08 PM

I am sure that I speak for all when I say that most everyone is very thankful for your exhaustive efforts Adam B.

In contrast I think that people have been disappointed when they see what has been forthcoming from iRex.

The issues that you brought up and the no suspend and long boot time are still big negatives.

I have yet to try your stuff mainly because I have not had a lot of time. I am actually looking forward to trying your ports but I am still cautious - I don't want to brick the thing.

In spite of it's shortcomings the iLiad has become to a minimal degree an integral part of my work environment. I will download weather graphics onto it prior to my departure and it is a bit of a "notebook" in that I can keep some short documents on it that alleviates the need to carry much more than the iLiad's weight in paper. So in that manner I "need" it. Now is all of this worth $800.00? No.

Right now the biggest issue that I want/need is bookmark support in PDF's (and a friggin' "back" button). This was promised by iRex and I am very disappointed that it has not come to fruition and there is no information that this function is forthcoming any time soon - very disappointing. The size of the PDF documentation that I have requires bookmarks, navigation through the documents otherwise is completely impractical. If and ever that support comes I will be a much happier camper. Someone suggested using one of the hard buttons as an access to the bookmarks or TOC's this is an excellent idea.

Since I have started to migrate to Linux I might try someone's (BK's?) hack to create pages of links in the PDF's. I know that the PDF's support links, but I am not going to manually link pages - that is just too time consuming. Not having a simple back button still makes this prospect a pain as well.

Again Adam B., thank you for all your efforts, They do not go unappreciated.

TadW · 04-13-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam B.

I know some people aren't happy with certain aspects of the company or the device. But other than the battery and calibration issues, what's there not to love about the iLiad? I do my best to bring new programs and features to the device, but I'm only one man.

Where are all the other linux users/programmers/hackers?

Adam, maybe it would help if you/we posted/attached a lot more screenshots so other curious people can see what they miss if they don't install your brilliant ports. For instance, how about showing how fbreader can be used with various e-book formats on the iLiad? I once learned that a picture says more than thousand words

I admit, after you released the vmware dev image, I was expecting more members to join your developing efforts. Perhaps there are fewer people who know what you are doing than was expected. What do you think - would it help to encourage more development by doing some step-by-step tutorials using the vmware image?

Adam B. · 04-13-2007, 03:52 PM

I don't know if it'd help or not. I include screenshots will all my apps, not sure if more would help...

It could be possible that there aren't as many technical people on here as I expected. But with the tutorial I made in the VMWare release thread, it should show everyone how easy the initial porting steps really are. I don't know if others would help, although I plan to make a bit more documentation with what I've learned about screen refreshes and the busy light. I'm waiting for iRex to post their new dev site, as a place to store all that.

Alexander Turcic · 04-13-2007, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam B.

I don't know if others would help, although I plan to make a bit more documention with what I've learned about screen refreshes and the busy light. I'm waiting for iRex to post their new dev site, as a place to store all that.

Adam, please don't forget our Wiki!

VillageReader · 04-13-2007, 04:23 PM

Shh, I'm reading.

kapoira · 04-13-2007, 05:58 PM

i read all the topics about the iliad but, like many others the brick possibility it what stop me now.

I know that you are with the abiword but when you can, you would show to me a method to use the buttons of the iliad in a port (the cqview) without touching the contentlistener or a secure method of doing it, ;-) , and i will try it, and i will put all the passes to get the cqview to work (i remeber you that now you have to put extra loaders in the gtk of the iliad to run the cqview), please can you tell me the initial loaders of the iliad, (now i have more) ;-)

jayk · 04-13-2007, 08:22 PM

Hi Adam,

I notice the same thing. Like many others I am interested in doing things on the Iliad - but the inability to unbrick without shipping it back (and being charged) puts the kabosh on that.

I do love my iLiad and it does most of what I need right now as is. I'd like a little better HTML reading - and I'm very keen on trying your fbreader port out. (go plucker!) but in general I'm very happy with it - hence why I won't risk losing it for weeks at a time. :-/

The stuff I want to hack on, though, is quite likely to end up in me bricking it, unfortunately. I want to hack on the startup scripts to improve the boot-time of the device. I have some ideas, but I'm just very reticent to start mucking around in there without a way to undo an 'oops'. I also have some ideas about the boot-screen - displaying the last page viewed - many people have talked about that.

So that's why for me... to paraphrase Inego Montoya... "I am waiting for un-brick-ing..."

JayK

wallcraft · 04-13-2007, 10:58 PM

I have been mostly lurking since the iLiad was released. Progress has been slow, but there has been progress towards making this a user programmable device. In a sense, Adam B was lucky that he did not get involved earlier - when the iLiad was less open and before there was the critical mass of knowledge about how to customize X11 apps for the iLiad. I say in a sense, because Adam could perhaps have overcome the earlier obstacles. It does appear that the debrick option is the last big missing piece of the puzzle.

I almost convinced myself to stop lurking and buy an iLiad, but then I read of the "2007" version. This might be a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing, but now I am waiting for the updated hardware.

The Sony threads are more active, but the vast majority of the topics are about converting files to an optimal format for the device. I don't think anyone has stopped to ask what is wrong with this picture. We all complain about the tower of e-babel and then many of us roll over and spend an inordinate amount of time converting to yet another vendor lock-in format. I am not blaming anyone, if this is the only way to get a satisfactory E-Ink reading experience then maybe it is worth all the trouble. For those who can afford it, the iLiad is now a viable alternative with much more capability for the additional cost and much shorter battery life. It does offend my technical sense that one of the first adopters of E-Ink should disregard one of its major advantages (long battery life), but I can get over it.

pdam · 04-14-2007, 04:44 PM

Hi Adam

You have already re-ignited some of the buzz!
The Sony Thread may have more volume ... but for me this thread is the more interesting.
I agree with all about the debrick issue being a key blocker to more initial interest.
Another real blocker is the sales volume - it's been linear rather than exponential ... which means that not enough new developers have been added to the pool beyond the early adopters. iRex's claim of shift XYZ units really still ins't that significant yet ...

Not withstanding the progress may have been slow (partly due to the debricking issue) but it still seems significant. I have tracked technology for many years. I'm not convinced of the viability of this generation of ebook reader - but I am impressed how this reader is turning into a reader + PDA / UMPC (with your AbiWord port helping greatly!)

I'm just waiting for a case with the built in flexible USB keyboard and a spreadsheet and I'll use little else!

I don't think people have moved on to the next new shiny thing yet ... as there isn't anything available that's better yet ...

Antartica · 04-15-2007, 05:37 AM

Where are the rest of the developers? Burned or waiting.

"In the early days" of the iliad, there was a nice prospect of building here a developer community for the iliad (arivero,scotty1024,design256,b_k,DHer,2k2r,sigi and some others that I don't have their nicks in my head). The problem is that most of them were bitten by the fragility of the iliad startup process, resulting in a bricked iliad. Others are just too busy with RealLife, it seems (arivero? me?

).

Personally, at first I was thinking of being just an user (because of free time scarcity), but TadW

sent me a PM to not leaving the community, and here I am.

I'm more of a kernel guy that an application programmer. I attribute that to the fact that I love to make drivers or complex engines (console-mode apps), but for UI apps, I tend to use scripting languages (tcl/tk, python/gtk, pike/sdl).

So, for me, until there is a way to flash a new OS into the iliad, I will only try to be an "enabler" (trying to get developments tools to an usable state, as with the toolchain) or scratch some personal itches (dillo, libX11, etc). Now that Adam has managed to bring Abiword to the Iliad, I will left behind also the ted port (sorry henk).

04-13-2007, 02:39 PM	#1
Adam B. Addicted to Porting Posts: 1,697 Karma: 7194 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN Device: iRex iLiad, Nokia 770, Samsung i760	Where's the excitement? I remember lurking in this forum the first few months after the iLiad came out. It was a buzz with people talking about the device, exploring, writing hacks and applications... Lately, there's a new topic every other day, and maybe 2 or 3 replies a day. A lot of the original owners seem to have dissapeared. Where'd the excitement go? I know some people aren't happy with certain aspects of the company or the device. But other than the battery and calibration issues, what's there not to love about the iLiad? I do my best to bring new programs and features to the device, but I'm only one man. Where are all the other linux users/programmers/hackers? Maybe it's because we've got such a high-end device, but I'm jealous of the Sony forums. They've passed us in topics and viewers a long time ago...

04-13-2007, 03:08 PM	#6
firekat Groupie Posts: 157 Karma: 314 Join Date: May 2006	I am sure that I speak for all when I say that most everyone is very thankful for your exhaustive efforts Adam B. In contrast I think that people have been disappointed when they see what has been forthcoming from iRex. The issues that you brought up and the no suspend and long boot time are still big negatives. I have yet to try your stuff mainly because I have not had a lot of time. I am actually looking forward to trying your ports but I am still cautious - I don't want to brick the thing. In spite of it's shortcomings the iLiad has become to a minimal degree an integral part of my work environment. I will download weather graphics onto it prior to my departure and it is a bit of a "notebook" in that I can keep some short documents on it that alleviates the need to carry much more than the iLiad's weight in paper. So in that manner I "need" it. Now is all of this worth $800.00? No. Right now the biggest issue that I want/need is bookmark support in PDF's (and a friggin' "back" button). This was promised by iRex and I am very disappointed that it has not come to fruition and there is no information that this function is forthcoming any time soon - very disappointing. The size of the PDF documentation that I have requires bookmarks, navigation through the documents otherwise is completely impractical. If and ever that support comes I will be a much happier camper. Someone suggested using one of the hard buttons as an access to the bookmarks or TOC's this is an excellent idea. Since I have started to migrate to Linux I might try someone's (BK's?) hack to create pages of links in the PDF's. I know that the PDF's support links, but I am not going to manually link pages - that is just too time consuming. Not having a simple back button still makes this prospect a pain as well. Again Adam B., thank you for all your efforts, They do not go unappreciated. Last edited by firekat; 04-13-2007 at 03:30 PM.

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04-13-2007, 02:56 PM	#2
Blue Connoisseur Posts: 56 Karma: 63 Join Date: Apr 2007	Once they release the next iLiad (version two or whatever you wanna call it) I'll join your quest in building exciting apps For now, I just enjoy reading these posts. ow and there are more then 2 or 3 replies each day

04-13-2007, 02:57 PM	#3
Bert Enthusiast Posts: 43 Karma: 2898 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Belgium Device: iRex iLiad, PRS-600	I think most people are reluctant to start hacking their iLiad until they are sure they can fix their device if they manage to brick it. And because there are so little people actually experimenting with the device, there isn't much to tell. Every time there is a new release by iRex the activity on the forum increases for a few days ... and fades out afterwards. I myself won't try any hacking with my iLiad until I can unbrick it myself. I am a programmer myself (mainly c++/MFC), but don't know much about Linux. So until I'm sure I can fix it if I mess things up (and I'm sure I will), I will keep my hands of any development directly on the iLiad - I haven't even requested shell access yet.

04-13-2007, 02:58 PM	#4
vranghel Addict Posts: 285 Karma: 10 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Vancouver, Canada Device: Proud Iliad owner	Yes, unfortunately it is true Adam. Seems that a lot of people stopped visiting this forum. There have been quite a few of annoyances over the months, and many couldnt take it anymore. What's sadder still is that the original programmers/hackers have given up altogheter. Still, now the forums are quite active, thanks to you. A couple months ago it was dead silence in here. It seems that for most people the 'new toy' feeling has dissipated and/or have moved to the next thing/gadget. It's quite sad actually, because there is still so much untapped potential left in the iLiad. Maybe once the reflash option is in place, there will be many more programmers, hacking away at the device with no fear of bricking.

04-13-2007, 03:07 PM	#5
Adam B. Addicted to Porting Posts: 1,697 Karma: 7194 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN Device: iRex iLiad, Nokia 770, Samsung i760	I understand that the risk of bricking will dissuade many people. I myself had a scare just this afternoon. To be honest though, the average port doesn't touch the root file system, so the risk is very minimal. Programming and porting has brought back that "new toy" feeling to my iLiad. Not to mention that with every new project I try, I learn more about linux and application development. That's how I can justify doing a lot of this at work, it helps me be a better network admin. Let's hope iRex can keep their proposed schedule for an April debricking option. Maybe that in addition to mobipocket support will help bring the forums to life again.

04-13-2007, 03:52 PM	#8
Adam B. Addicted to Porting Posts: 1,697 Karma: 7194 Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Indianapolis, IN Device: iRex iLiad, Nokia 770, Samsung i760	I don't know if it'd help or not. I include screenshots will all my apps, not sure if more would help... It could be possible that there aren't as many technical people on here as I expected. But with the tutorial I made in the VMWare release thread, it should show everyone how easy the initial porting steps really are. I don't know if others would help, although I plan to make a bit more documentation with what I've learned about screen refreshes and the busy light. I'm waiting for iRex to post their new dev site, as a place to store all that.

04-13-2007, 04:23 PM	#10
VillageReader Evangelist Posts: 430 Karma: 2718 Join Date: May 2006 Device: Iliad	Shh, I'm reading.

04-13-2007, 05:58 PM	#11
kapoira Connoisseur Posts: 81 Karma: 292 Join Date: Nov 2006 Device: i62HD + T68	i read all the topics about the iliad but, like many others the brick possibility it what stop me now. I know that you are with the abiword but when you can, you would show to me a method to use the buttons of the iliad in a port (the cqview) without touching the contentlistener or a secure method of doing it, ;-) , and i will try it, and i will put all the passes to get the cqview to work (i remeber you that now you have to put extra loaders in the gtk of the iliad to run the cqview), please can you tell me the initial loaders of the iliad, (now i have more) ;-)

04-13-2007, 08:22 PM	#12
jayk Enthusiast Posts: 26 Karma: 201 Join Date: Mar 2007 Device: Iliad	Hi Adam, I notice the same thing. Like many others I am interested in doing things on the Iliad - but the inability to unbrick without shipping it back (and being charged) puts the kabosh on that. I do love my iLiad and it does most of what I need right now as is. I'd like a little better HTML reading - and I'm very keen on trying your fbreader port out. (go plucker!) but in general I'm very happy with it - hence why I won't risk losing it for weeks at a time. :-/ The stuff I want to hack on, though, is quite likely to end up in me bricking it, unfortunately. I want to hack on the startup scripts to improve the boot-time of the device. I have some ideas, but I'm just very reticent to start mucking around in there without a way to undo an 'oops'. I also have some ideas about the boot-screen - displaying the last page viewed - many people have talked about that. So that's why for me... to paraphrase Inego Montoya... "I am waiting for un-brick-ing..." JayK

04-13-2007, 10:58 PM	#13
wallcraft reader Posts: 6,977 Karma: 5183568 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mississippi, USA Device: Kindle 3, Kobo Glo HD	I have been mostly lurking since the iLiad was released. Progress has been slow, but there has been progress towards making this a user programmable device. In a sense, Adam B was lucky that he did not get involved earlier - when the iLiad was less open and before there was the critical mass of knowledge about how to customize X11 apps for the iLiad. I say in a sense, because Adam could perhaps have overcome the earlier obstacles. It does appear that the debrick option is the last big missing piece of the puzzle. I almost convinced myself to stop lurking and buy an iLiad, but then I read of the "2007" version. This might be a case of a little knowledge being a bad thing, but now I am waiting for the updated hardware. The Sony threads are more active, but the vast majority of the topics are about converting files to an optimal format for the device. I don't think anyone has stopped to ask what is wrong with this picture. We all complain about the tower of e-babel and then many of us roll over and spend an inordinate amount of time converting to yet another vendor lock-in format. I am not blaming anyone, if this is the only way to get a satisfactory E-Ink reading experience then maybe it is worth all the trouble. For those who can afford it, the iLiad is now a viable alternative with much more capability for the additional cost and much shorter battery life. It does offend my technical sense that one of the first adopters of E-Ink should disregard one of its major advantages (long battery life), but I can get over it.

04-14-2007, 04:44 PM	#14
pdam Groupie Posts: 199 Karma: 100 Join Date: Aug 2006 Device: iLiad, iPaq, Psion5&7, Blackberry	Hi Adam You have already re-ignited some of the buzz! The Sony Thread may have more volume ... but for me this thread is the more interesting. I agree with all about the debrick issue being a key blocker to more initial interest. Another real blocker is the sales volume - it's been linear rather than exponential ... which means that not enough new developers have been added to the pool beyond the early adopters. iRex's claim of shift XYZ units really still ins't that significant yet ... Not withstanding the progress may have been slow (partly due to the debricking issue) but it still seems significant. I have tracked technology for many years. I'm not convinced of the viability of this generation of ebook reader - but I am impressed how this reader is turning into a reader + PDA / UMPC (with your AbiWord port helping greatly!) I'm just waiting for a case with the built in flexible USB keyboard and a spreadsheet and I'll use little else! I don't think people have moved on to the next new shiny thing yet ... as there isn't anything available that's better yet ...

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04-15-2007, 05:37 AM	#15
Antartica Evangelist Posts: 423 Karma: 1517132 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Madrid, Spain Device: quaderno, remarkable2, yotaphone2, prs950, iliad, onhandpc, newton	Where are the rest of the developers? Burned or waiting. "In the early days" of the iliad, there was a nice prospect of building here a developer community for the iliad (arivero,scotty1024,design256,b_k,DHer,2k2r,sigi and some others that I don't have their nicks in my head). The problem is that most of them were bitten by the fragility of the iliad startup process, resulting in a bricked iliad. Others are just too busy with RealLife, it seems (arivero? me? ). Personally, at first I was thinking of being just an user (because of free time scarcity), but TadW sent me a PM to not leaving the community, and here I am. I'm more of a kernel guy that an application programmer. I attribute that to the fact that I love to make drivers or complex engines (console-mode apps), but for UI apps, I tend to use scripting languages (tcl/tk, python/gtk, pike/sdl). So, for me, until there is a way to flash a new OS into the iliad, I will only try to be an "enabler" (trying to get developments tools to an usable state, as with the toolchain) or scratch some personal itches (dillo, libX11, etc). Now that Adam has managed to bring Abiword to the Iliad, I will left behind also the ted port (sorry henk).