The only kind of piracy I cared enough about to write...

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 04:13 PM

First allow me to preface this with the fact that I searched this forum and did not turn up a conversation that addressed exactly this topic so.....if I missed something and am therefore addressing something already discussed, the kind reader has my profound apologies.

There are many kinds of piracy out there: movies, software, music, anything that can be digitized. And anything that *can* be digitized is "out there"; you just need to know where to look. We are all here because we are avid readers and personally I feel there is no correlation between how much something cost to make and its actual worth. For example less than 1 percent of the music I hear is worth the price of purchase and frankly not even worth stealing. Movies are almost moreso into this camp. Software is a completely different animal because in my case I use completely open source software which means it is all free which in turn means even if I were to avail myself of the wares out there they would be of no use (Linux is all I need but that is another discussion).

This leaves us with books. Books are interesting because for the a cost of a download of a single movie you can download almost a whole library of ebooks. It doesn't end there: say there is a series of books that you would love to read (or perhaps re-read if they are from your childhood); however these books are not deemed profitable therefore are not kept in any form by any reseller so they are by and large, unavailable at any price. You would need to be at the right place at the right time to find these gems and if not all are available at the same place/time, it would take years of search if they are ever all available at any price. Yet for the cost of a single search and download of a few hundred megabytes, Bobs your uncle and off you go to a corner by the fire to read something not available in dead-tree form at any price.It is right? No. Is it totally wrong? Not in my opinion; if an author/publisher who makes books for the sole purpose of them being read, no longer makes them available to anyone anywhere this is more like lending. Making the waters muddier yet is if you are like us, avid scifi and fantasy book readers and over a lifetime of living have bought and rebought many if not all of these volumes and lost them due to moves, divorces, etc and you come across something that you used to own, want to read again and could not give money to anyone to get an ebook version if you wanted to...

Even further making things difficult, as if the above were not enough, is the simple fact that a pirated book (or PD book from say Gutenberg) is usually less than a megabyte in size and provide hours of entertainment if not days, whereas the latest Britney Spears effort will weigh in at something like 4 megs, is effectively disposable and can really only be enjoyed (if at all but that is a matter of taste) for 3 minutes give or take. For the same amount of download time for say a movie you can download enough books that you like to entertain you for a lifetime. I know this to be true.

Am I saying this to advocate piracy? Absolutely not. No, I am not some high-and-mighty do-gooder and have always lived at the edges of what is legal and what is right. However as mentioned I am an avid reader and I would like to see my $$ go to what really, truly entertains and informs me. I have seen "amnesty" like programs for software (most of which was not worth a fart in a high wind), the movie industry just goes for the throat (look at the latest insanity the makers of The Hurt Locker are trying; effectively a scorched earth policy), the music industry is almost as bad with their gangster-like tactics (plus I pay for every bit of music I listen to, if for no other reason than to support the genre (the blues) so that there will be more of it) but for authors long out of print, where your only hope of finding a print of a particular volume is at a garage or yard sale (not sure what my British comrades call them across the pond but the idea is the same) I wish there was a program where if you "find" something that you had no hope of buying yet enjoyed very much you could contribute financially to the author or the authors family. If they are still alive and working, the money and many words of encouragement might be enough to motive them to write more. I don't know for sure and don't pretend to have the answers.

The bottom line is the instant a collection of books is out there on some server somewhere, it shall be available everywhere for free from now until doomsday. DRM is not the answer; the horses have left the barn. If there is even a single non-protected version out there, the DRM version is a lost cause and only adhered to by those falsely believe there is any real power in DRM. I know not everyone has the same attitude I do but I think there are enough of us where it could make a difference. Even if an ebook is given away for free, if I like a book (Like the FireFly book by Steven Brust) I still email to author to thank him for his hard work and comment on how much I liked it.

Digitized books are so different than any other medium (movies, etc) because the rest are so "disposable" they are like jokes; once told, the retelling rarely carries the same impact. One good thing about book piracy (not enough to say all books should be free) but the very nature of a digitized ebook in a format that can be read by anything says that the book will continue to be available to future generations. Some web pages are smaller than some of the best ebooks.

This subject seems to be the elephant in the room here so I thought to bring it out into the open. I would like to know what others think on this...

ardeegee · 09-14-2010, 04:48 PM

I haven't read the longish post, so all I'll say is that this thread is going to help kennyc's post count.

queentess · 09-14-2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

This subject seems to be the elephant in the room here so I thought to bring it out into the open. I would like to know what others think on this...

I'm extremely unclear on the point you're trying to make, but these threads should answer any questions you have.

Using "alternative" sources to obtain books you already own?

Do you consider it to be unethical...

ethical issue of borrowing library books and downloading same content

Does anyone browse the darknet library before buying an ebook?

ebook piracy numbers

How are geographic restrictions affecting you?

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

I haven't read the longish post, so all I'll say is that this thread is going to help kennyc's post count.

Being new I do not know who kennyc is but....the post is long on purpose; one of the things I feared greatly is that people think I am advocating piracy. I am not. Been in the biz for a few decades so I guess you could call me a reformed pirate....but if it is overly long and there is a shorter way to say it, I am sorry.

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queentess

Using "alternative" sources to obtain books you already own?

Do you consider it to be unethical...

ethical issue of borrowing library books and downloading same content

Does anyone browse the darknet library before buying an ebook?

ebook piracy numbers

How are geographic restrictions affecting you?

OK I guess my search queries stink. I really did try though and wound up on threads that really did not address the matter I wanted to discuss...

Sorry for not searching more thoroughly...side-effect of doing too many things att once..

queentess · 09-14-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

OK I guess my search queries stink. I really did try though and wound up on threads that really did not address the matter I wanted to discuss...

Sorry for not searching more thoroughly...side-effect of doing too many things att once..

No problem

querying "darknet" or "illegal" or "theft" should turn up quite a few hits for you, or just look for threads that run more than 10 pages...

queentess · 09-14-2010, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

Being new I do not know who kennyc is but....the post is long on purpose; one of the things I feared greatly is that people think I am advocating piracy. I am not. Been in the biz for a few decades so I guess you could call me a reformed pirate....but if it is overly long and there is a shorter way to say it, I am sorry.

Look through the threads in my link and I think you'll figure out kennyc's stance on piracy

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queentess

I'm extremely unclear on the point you're trying to make, but these threads should answer any questions you have.

Using "alternative" sources to obtain books you already own?

Do you consider it to be unethical...

ethical issue of borrowing library books and downloading same content

Does anyone browse the darknet library before buying an ebook?

ebook piracy numbers

How are geographic restrictions affecting you?

Just out of curiosity, what search terms did you use? Mine "piracy, etc" produced a lot of noise with few tangible results. I am honestly curious so I don't make this mistake again. The the fact that I wrote so much to explain the question (while still apparently failing) should speak to how earnest I am at gaining understanding on this...

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by queentess

I'm extremely unclear on the point you're trying to make, but these threads should answer any questions you have.

Using "alternative" sources to obtain books you already own?

Do you consider it to be unethical...

ethical issue of borrowing library books and downloading same content

Does anyone browse the darknet library before buying an ebook?

ebook piracy numbers

How are geographic restrictions affecting you?

what I was asking was this: Pirated books will always be out there so if I have one that I like and it is out of print or otherwise unavailable, I wanted to know if there was an amnesty program where people could pay money directly to the authors to thank them for the work. That's all All of the rest of my verbiage was to illustrate the fact that books pirate easier than any other medium, you get bout value per-byte than any other medium and that I am more likely to go to great lengths to pay a hard-working author than I am for a movie, song or software (although the software angle is a non-starter since all of my software is free to begin with). That's all.

jeffcobb · 09-14-2010, 05:37 PM

BTW and just to be clear: When posters refer to "darknet" (a new term for me) you are referring to parts of the net to get illegal stuff, corrrect? IOW you are not referring to a specific network or somthing...

Lady Fitzgerald · 09-14-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

BTW and just to be clear: When posters refer to "darknet" (a new term for me) you are referring to parts of the net to get illegal stuff, corrrect? IOW you are not referring to a specific network or somthing...

Correct.

ardeegee · 09-14-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

I wanted to know if there was an amnesty program where people could pay money directly to the authors to thank them for the work.

Sure. It is called "google." Pick your favorite authors. Google to see if their e-mail address is public. If not, google to find their agent or publicist and see if their e-mail address is public. Paypal them the cash or ask for somewhere to mail a check.

Lady Fitzgerald · 09-14-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffcobb

what I was asking was this: Pirated books will always be out there so if I have one that I like and it is out of print or otherwise unavailable, I wanted to know if there was an amnesty program where people could pay money directly to the authors to thank them for the work...

Not that I am aware of. It sounds like a good idea but the logistics to impliment it would be horrific. Part of your argument is undermined by the fact that books, or their rights, are not always owned by the authors.

BillSmithBooks · 09-14-2010, 09:12 PM

Jeff:

Most authors who have sold their books to a traditional publisher are under contract with them -- they have signed an agreement giving the publisher the right to be the sole publisher of that work in most cases. So while these authors might appreciate the show of support such a donation/tip jar contribution might be, I bet most would much rather you acquire the book legally (preferably new, since they get no royalty from used books sales).

For books that are out of print or not available due to geographic restrictions, I would think the best bet is to contact both the author and the publisher and request that they make the book available. Let them know that you have cash in hand, eager to spend...the more publishers hear from folks like that, the more inclined they will be to make these books available.

Independent self-pubbed authors might be a good deal more receptive to such contributions since they are both publisher and author...

Personally, because my ebooks lack DRM, I have set up a tip jar option on my website and within my ebooks because I'm expecting...perhaps even hoping...for a bit of the "pass along to a friend" effect. I hate the idea of making my books difficult to access -- DRM tends to penalize the honest, well-meaning but less technically savvy readers far more than the dedicated "pirates."

My hope is that if you get a copy from a friend and you enjoy my stories, perhaps you'll go purchase some of my other books.

As a small, independent author, every sale and every contribution counts. Financial support from readers who enjoy my stories makes it possible for me to keep on writing books instead of doing other tasks to earn a living.

-- Bill Smith
BillSmithBooks.com

clockworkzombie · 09-15-2010, 02:23 AM

What I would like to see is a service by publishers, a mail in service where you give them your physical books and pay a nominal fee to receive an electronic copy instead. The publishers could then sell the traded in books in what could become a huge second hand market place for paper loving luddites. Obviously older works will have to be scanned but only once then everyone else that wants a copy is pure profit.

I was planning to scan a few of my favourite books that are not in print, then I realised I would have to keep all my originals anyway for proof of ownership, though as the books would likely have the spine removed for scanning I could keep a folder with the covers in it.

09-14-2010, 04:13 PM	#1
jeffcobb Groupie Posts: 152 Karma: 700 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Las Vegas Device: Nook, CoolER	The only kind of piracy I cared enough about to write... First allow me to preface this with the fact that I searched this forum and did not turn up a conversation that addressed exactly this topic so.....if I missed something and am therefore addressing something already discussed, the kind reader has my profound apologies. There are many kinds of piracy out there: movies, software, music, anything that can be digitized. And anything that can be digitized is "out there"; you just need to know where to look. We are all here because we are avid readers and personally I feel there is no correlation between how much something cost to make and its actual worth. For example less than 1 percent of the music I hear is worth the price of purchase and frankly not even worth stealing. Movies are almost moreso into this camp. Software is a completely different animal because in my case I use completely open source software which means it is all free which in turn means even if I were to avail myself of the wares out there they would be of no use (Linux is all I need but that is another discussion). This leaves us with books. Books are interesting because for the a cost of a download of a single movie you can download almost a whole library of ebooks. It doesn't end there: say there is a series of books that you would love to read (or perhaps re-read if they are from your childhood); however these books are not deemed profitable therefore are not kept in any form by any reseller so they are by and large, unavailable at any price. You would need to be at the right place at the right time to find these gems and if not all are available at the same place/time, it would take years of search if they are ever all available at any price. Yet for the cost of a single search and download of a few hundred megabytes, Bobs your uncle and off you go to a corner by the fire to read something not available in dead-tree form at any price.It is right? No. Is it totally wrong? Not in my opinion; if an author/publisher who makes books for the sole purpose of them being read, no longer makes them available to anyone anywhere this is more like lending. Making the waters muddier yet is if you are like us, avid scifi and fantasy book readers and over a lifetime of living have bought and rebought many if not all of these volumes and lost them due to moves, divorces, etc and you come across something that you used to own, want to read again and could not give money to anyone to get an ebook version if you wanted to... Even further making things difficult, as if the above were not enough, is the simple fact that a pirated book (or PD book from say Gutenberg) is usually less than a megabyte in size and provide hours of entertainment if not days, whereas the latest Britney Spears effort will weigh in at something like 4 megs, is effectively disposable and can really only be enjoyed (if at all but that is a matter of taste) for 3 minutes give or take. For the same amount of download time for say a movie you can download enough books that you like to entertain you for a lifetime. I know this to be true. Am I saying this to advocate piracy? Absolutely not. No, I am not some high-and-mighty do-gooder and have always lived at the edges of what is legal and what is right. However as mentioned I am an avid reader and I would like to see my $$ go to what really, truly entertains and informs me. I have seen "amnesty" like programs for software (most of which was not worth a fart in a high wind), the movie industry just goes for the throat (look at the latest insanity the makers of The Hurt Locker are trying; effectively a scorched earth policy), the music industry is almost as bad with their gangster-like tactics (plus I pay for every bit of music I listen to, if for no other reason than to support the genre (the blues) so that there will be more of it) but for authors long out of print, where your only hope of finding a print of a particular volume is at a garage or yard sale (not sure what my British comrades call them across the pond but the idea is the same) I wish there was a program where if you "find" something that you had no hope of buying yet enjoyed very much you could contribute financially to the author or the authors family. If they are still alive and working, the money and many words of encouragement might be enough to motive them to write more. I don't know for sure and don't pretend to have the answers. The bottom line is the instant a collection of books is out there on some server somewhere, it shall be available everywhere for free from now until doomsday. DRM is not the answer; the horses have left the barn. If there is even a single non-protected version out there, the DRM version is a lost cause and only adhered to by those falsely believe there is any real power in DRM. I know not everyone has the same attitude I do but I think there are enough of us where it could make a difference. Even if an ebook is given away for free, if I like a book (Like the FireFly book by Steven Brust) I still email to author to thank him for his hard work and comment on how much I liked it. Digitized books are so different than any other medium (movies, etc) because the rest are so "disposable" they are like jokes; once told, the retelling rarely carries the same impact. One good thing about book piracy (not enough to say all books should be free) but the very nature of a digitized ebook in a format that can be read by anything says that the book will continue to be available to future generations. Some web pages are smaller than some of the best ebooks. This subject seems to be the elephant in the room here so I thought to bring it out into the open. I would like to know what others think on this...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Anti-Piracy group wants to ban you from talking about piracy	Nate the great	News	39	06-06-2012 05:20 AM
What kind of covers do you use?	csskkai	Sony Reader	51	08-06-2010 02:04 AM
New and Kind of Lost	Mary McDonald	Introduce Yourself	13	07-06-2010 08:31 AM
Write Fast, Write Slow?	Moejoe	Writers' Corner	14	03-25-2009 09:55 AM
A different kind of wish list	ChrisI	Sony Reader	19	06-04-2008 05:59 AM

09-14-2010, 04:48 PM	#2
ardeegee Maratus speciosus butt Posts: 3,292 Karma: 1162698 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-350	I haven't read the longish post, so all I'll say is that this thread is going to help kennyc's post count.

09-14-2010, 05:37 PM	#10
jeffcobb Groupie Posts: 152 Karma: 700 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Las Vegas Device: Nook, CoolER	BTW and just to be clear: When posters refer to "darknet" (a new term for me) you are referring to parts of the net to get illegal stuff, corrrect? IOW you are not referring to a specific network or somthing...

09-14-2010, 09:12 PM	#14
BillSmithBooks Padawan Learner Posts: 243 Karma: 1085815 Join Date: May 2009 Location: www.OutlawGalaxy.com, Foothills of NY's Adirondack mountains Device: My PC...using Puppy Linux (FBReader, Calibre, Kindle Cloud Reader,	Jeff: Most authors who have sold their books to a traditional publisher are under contract with them -- they have signed an agreement giving the publisher the right to be the sole publisher of that work in most cases. So while these authors might appreciate the show of support such a donation/tip jar contribution might be, I bet most would much rather you acquire the book legally (preferably new, since they get no royalty from used books sales). For books that are out of print or not available due to geographic restrictions, I would think the best bet is to contact both the author and the publisher and request that they make the book available. Let them know that you have cash in hand, eager to spend...the more publishers hear from folks like that, the more inclined they will be to make these books available. Independent self-pubbed authors might be a good deal more receptive to such contributions since they are both publisher and author... Personally, because my ebooks lack DRM, I have set up a tip jar option on my website and within my ebooks because I'm expecting...perhaps even hoping...for a bit of the "pass along to a friend" effect. I hate the idea of making my books difficult to access -- DRM tends to penalize the honest, well-meaning but less technically savvy readers far more than the dedicated "pirates." My hope is that if you get a copy from a friend and you enjoy my stories, perhaps you'll go purchase some of my other books. As a small, independent author, every sale and every contribution counts. Financial support from readers who enjoy my stories makes it possible for me to keep on writing books instead of doing other tasks to earn a living. -- Bill Smith BillSmithBooks.com

09-15-2010, 02:23 AM	#15
clockworkzombie Connoisseur Posts: 99 Karma: 11962 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Central Queensland Device: iPad	What I would like to see is a service by publishers, a mail in service where you give them your physical books and pay a nominal fee to receive an electronic copy instead. The publishers could then sell the traded in books in what could become a huge second hand market place for paper loving luddites. Obviously older works will have to be scanned but only once then everyone else that wants a copy is pure profit. I was planning to scan a few of my favourite books that are not in print, then I realised I would have to keep all my originals anyway for proof of ownership, though as the books would likely have the spine removed for scanning I could keep a folder with the covers in it.

Advert

Advert