Geographic restrictions - a different perspective

[taustin]

The second most common complaint I see, after erratic pricing, is on geographic restrictions on sales (and it certainly is annoying, and part of an outdated business model). The consensus is that publishers are entirely at fault, and do it out of evil stupidity and greed (and they certainly are guilty of both in spades).

However, I believe that there is more to it than that. And, in fact, I believe that more of the push-back on this is from authors than from publishers. Because, you see, the tradtional busines model of publishers buying rights only for specific countries did not originate with publishers' interests, but authors. That system is a source of additional revenue to authors, not publishers.

If I sell rights to a publisher in the US, who is not going to sell (paper) books outside the US, then if I sell them worldwide rights, I can't sell, say, European rights to a British publisher for more money, or rights to publish in Russian to a Russian publisher.

The change that has taken place is that, in the past, publishers were OK with that because they were not getting rights they had no practical way to use anyway. But the internet has changed that, and any publisher can sell direct to a consumer on another continent as easily as to the guy who lives next door. I suspect that most publishers would love to get worldwide rights on every new contract. But authors will not - and should not - give up additional rights, especially additional rights that will translate directly to additional income for the publisher, without getting more money. Not necessarily a higher royalty percentage (just for the extra geographical rights, at any rate), but a higher advance, and perhaps a change in the way the royalty percentage changes as sales build up.

And all this at a time when the market is demanding lower retail prices in the incorrect perception that ebooks cost a lot less to produce than paper books (when, in fact, it isn't that much less). Caught between a rock and a hard place, and they are generally not too bright, and are, generally, far more interested in making their boat payment than serving the market well.

I think authors are going to need to adjust to the worldwide nature of the interent as much as publishers are, and I think it's going to be every bit as painful for them.

[apbschmitz]

In my experience of this, foreign rights sales generally involved a translation of the text. So my English language book sold in Germany, was translated into German and I made a bit of additional money from the German publisher. The difference now, I suppose, is that a German reader can buy the English version on line with limited muss and fuss. But I wonder if or how book contracts have changed to deal with eBook/print versions of the book in translation in other countries. Anybody out there with recent experience?

[Jellby]

The authors (or their agents) should just sell geographically restricted rights for paper books, but worldwide (non-exclusive) rights for ebooks, so I can choose to buy an ebook from a US, UK or Australian retailer.

Or lobby to get rid of this stupid "place of sale is the buyer's computer" (in practice, the bank that issued the buyer's credit card) thing.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Or lobby to get rid of this stupid "place of sale is the buyer's computer" (in practice, the bank that issued the buyer's credit card) thing.

That leads to all sorts of potential complications. For instance, if there's a legal dispute, the jurisdiction for it will be where the transaction took place. If it's the seller's location, then it is possible that neither the card holder nor the issuing bank will be local. You wouldn't like to be sued in another country, would you?

[elcreative]

Originally Posted by apbschmitz

In my experience of this, foreign rights sales generally involved a translation of the text. So my English language book sold in Germany, was translated into German and I made a bit of additional money from the German publisher. The difference now, I suppose, is that a German reader can buy the English version on line with limited muss and fuss. But I wonder if or how book contracts have changed to deal with eBook/print versions of the book in translation in other countries. Anybody out there with recent experience?

Translation is only one use of "foreign rights" sales... the other major usage has been US (sometimes with, sometimes without Canada), UK and Australia (all including associated areas) because, (as previously pointed out), publishers didn't operate on a worldwide basis... the current international conglomerates are a relatively recent development and publishers were originally far more area based down to some only operating in a single country. This is why it made absolutely no sense for an author to sell worldwide rights to a publisher as they didn't operate worldwide...

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by taustin

That leads to all sorts of potential complications. For instance, if there's a legal dispute, the jurisdiction for it will be where the transaction took place. If it's the seller's location, then it is possible that neither the card holder nor the issuing bank will be local. You wouldn't like to be sued in another country, would you?

It doesn't seem to be a problem with physical goods.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Jellby

It doesn't seem to be a problem with physical goods.

How often do you have the opportunity to buy a paper book from a US company while you are physical in Europe? It's not at all a comparable situation. That's why it's an issue now.

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by taustin

How often do you have the opportunity to buy a paper book from a US company while you are physical in Europe? It's not at all a comparable situation. That's why it's an issue now.

Since I buy online, most physical books I've bought have been exactly in that situation.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Since I buy online, most physical books I've bought have been exactly in that situation.

Mail order transactions are a lot more complicated, legally speaking, actually. Especially international ones.

[kiwipippa]

Geographic restrictions are a major bug bear of mine here downunder in New Zealand. Since I started ereading, it has slowly got worse with more and more retailers closing their doors to us - especially UK retailers. WH Smith and Waterstones being the two that were my main source.

And for me the really annoying thing is that I can buy a paperback copy of the book through a UK retailer (bookdepository.co.uk) and have it shipped here free of charge, but not the ebook. It's just completely nonsensical.

I'm not sure I agree with the OP about authors driving this. That may traditionally have been the case, but in my opinion, the blame lies fairly and squarely with the publishers - most authors have just gone along for the ride as the model transitions to the internet. I hope more pull away from publishers and go direct, but I can't see that happening to mainstream authors anytime soon.

[anamardoll]

Originally Posted by taustin

The second most common complaint I see, after erratic pricing, is on geographic restrictions on sales (and it certainly is annoying, and part of an outdated business model). The consensus is that publishers are entirely at fault, and do it out of evil stupidity and greed (and they certainly are guilty of both in spades).

Hi there.

I spent 5 hours yesterday working out how to buy Roald Dahl books. (It took 7 spoons, total, for anyone keeping count.) Roald Dahl, as you may or may not know, has been dead for ~20 years.

Without being a stirrer, I'm not...seeing the point of this thread. You seem to be saying that it's not the publishers who are greedy, it's the authors! Ok. Maybe in some cases. Doubtful in others -- there are several Margaret Atwood books still not available over here and I doubt it's because she can't find a buyer. Probably the rights are in dispute. And of course a whole bunch of geo-restricted authors are dead, so there's that. But yeah, I can totally believe that at least one case is a Greedy Author instead of a Greedy Publisher.

The point being?

I mean, the publishers are still to blame for much of the mess that is ebook rights. And they're all pretty big corporations, so I don't think me or anyone else criticizing them on MR is going to make them cry. I guess I'm just not seeing the big point being made here.

I *would* like my spoons back. But that ain't going to happen.

[bevdeforges]

Originally Posted by Jellby

The authors (or their agents) should just sell geographically restricted rights for paper books, but worldwide (non-exclusive) rights for ebooks, so I can choose to buy an ebook from a US, UK or Australian retailer.

Actually, it's the business model that is at fault here. There's no reason an author (or publisher) couldn't hold and sell the "worldwide English language" rights to a given title. The translation rights would still be available for sale and distribution rights could be linked to the language of the work rather than the geographical point of sale. (After all, the translator has a right to compensation, too.)

[taustin]

Originally Posted by anamardoll

You seem to be saying that it's not the publishers who are greedy, it's the authors!

Not my intent. My intent is to say that it is both who are responsible. The authors are acting out of legitimate self-interest - if you want more rights, give us more money - and the publishers out of inertia, greed and incompetence.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Ok. Maybe in some cases. Doubtful in others -- there are several Margaret Atwood books still not available over here and I doubt it's because she can't find a buyer. Probably the rights are in dispute.

There's a lot of confusion over exactly what rights older contracts cover. In some cases, it's only specific rights as specified, in others, it's "and any other possible media that might some day be invented," and everything in between. The devil is in the details, and nobody wins if there's a lawsuit.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

And of course a whole bunch of geo-restricted authors are dead, so there's that.

And that complicates it a lot more. When the author is dead, it might be difficult to determine who controls the estate to negotiate a new deal. The heirs might not want any new deals (I know of at least one author of roleplaying games whose family were a little embarassed by his work, and any reneotiations would be more likely to reduce availablity rather than increase it), and of course, there's always the possibility of non-author heirs who simply have no clue how much (or, rather, how little) such rights are worth, and make insane demands.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

But yeah, I can totally believe that at least one case is a Greedy Author instead of a Greedy Publisher.

The point being?[/QUOTE]

That it's not an "or" situation. That, in the vast majority of cases, it's both that are the reason for geo-restrictions, and that both need to adjust their thinking before it will change.

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I mean, the publishers are still to blame for much of the mess that is ebook rights. And they're all pretty big corporations, so I don't think me or anyone else criticizing them on MR is going to make them cry. I guess I'm just not seeing the big point being made here.

Geo-restrictions aren't there (and never were) to protect the publisher's interests, they exist to protect the author's interests. They came to be standard because the authors (or, rather, their agents) came to realize their clients could make more money, without actually costing the publishers a cent, if rights were split up by region. That condition is no longer true, but successful authors talking to wannabes still point out that you need to make sure your agents includes geo-restrictions in the contract to protect possible additional revenue sources.

The solution isn't for publishers to be less greedy. They should, if anything, be more greedy, and offer up higher advances and better options on royalties to get those world-wide ebook rights, so they can get all the sales on a particular book instead of just part. But at the same time, authors need to realize that those world-wide rights are not going to get them better royalty percentages, or, frankly, a lot more in an advance, and be willing to cough them up on a realistic basis.

The world has changed for both sides.

[taustin]

Originally Posted by bevdeforges

Actually, it's the business model that is at fault here. There's no reason an author (or publisher) couldn't hold and sell the "worldwide English language" rights to a given title. The translation rights would still be available for sale and distribution rights could be linked to the language of the work rather than the geographical point of sale. (After all, the translator has a right to compensation, too.)

And that's exactly what I expect to see happen, eventually. But I've never seen the issue covered from the authors' point of view, in the many, many discussion of the issue here or elsewhere, so I thought I'd throw it out and get people talking about it.

[rogue_librarian]

Originally Posted by taustin

How often do you have the opportunity to buy a paper book from a US company while you are physical in Europe?

They call it Amazon, you know? Or the Book Depository, which ships from the UK (I'm on the continent). Or dozens of other stores.

And I, too, am of the opinion that publishers should have the non-exclusive right to sell their version and language world wide. Don't overestimate the demand for "original language" literature; most people will still want a localized, translated version, and the rights for that can still be sold separately. If I, on the other hand, want to read an American author in the original I should be able to do so, even when in Europe.