A big complaint about Smashwords

MrPLD · 10-03-2010, 09:49 AM

SUMMARY: Smashwords only provides a single input format (ms-doc). It would be nice to support one additional, open standard/documented format.

Quote:

Maybe this isn't the right place to put it ... but I'm going to try anyhow.

Very simply, for a place that promotes eBooks and no-DRM I'm disturbed that the only format they seem to accept when you go to submit your eBook is... Microsoft Word .doc.

* MS Word doc format layouts are unpredictable even within MS Office between versions
* Microsoft promotes a culture of lock-in, MSOffice is one of their biggest levers in this
* Converting manuscripts from beautiful postscript/TeX sources to doc invariably mangles the typesetting and layouts (to be fair, eBooks are the bigger limitation in their rendering engines)

So what do I want from Smashwords... well, how about accepting ePub or ODF (open document format) as a baseline at the very least? While ePub isn't the best it is at least open and available to everyone and can be generated from multiple sources with Calibre.

I'm probably over-reacting but it just seems to me to be a rather unfortunate limitation given the push to open standards.

I agree a lot of people are still using MS Office to generate their manuscripts but for many of us out here using MS Office is never an option for multiple reasons, financially, ethically and professionally ( TeX users will understand ).

Paul.

(PS, will be happy to redact this if someone can show me that it isn't limited to just .doc files

)

mjhudston · 10-03-2010, 10:42 AM

have you actually researched smashwords? The input format is word because it is a standard. They then convert this using their meet grinder software, to provide outputs in various formats including lrf, PDF, pub, mobi and others.

MrPLD · 10-03-2010, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjhudston

have you actually researched smashwords?

Yes, which is precisely why I posted this thread.

Quote:

The input format is word because it is a standard. They then convert this using their meet grinder software, to provide outputs in various formats including lrf, PDF, pub, mobi and others.

MS Office is not a standard - it's a badly ailing defacto format that's full of kludges, hacks and legacy dead wood that cannot guarantee a consistent interpretation between versions of even Microsoft's own Office software. Yes, a lot of people use it and a lot of people can't escape it because of the lock-in effect.

There are a lot of better options that can be used when it comes to handing over manuscripts to be converted into multiple eReader output formats.

Given the availability of Calibre a sane additional option would be to allow people to upload ePub.

It is in the author's best interest to ensure that the quality of their work is maintained.

Paul.

MrPLD · 10-03-2010, 10:56 AM

I should make it clear - I'm not asking them to not accept doc, rather I'm asking them to accept at least one format that's actually standardised (again, as they used to).

Paul.

neilmarr · 10-03-2010, 01:22 PM

In a nutshell, Paul. Smashwords is for amateurs and those who have no proper technical support. It should be a LAST resort and not a first. And this is no insult to Mark Coker and his system, which do at least provide a service of sorts. Neil

kacir · 10-03-2010, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrPLD

I should make it clear - I'm not asking them to not accept doc, rather I'm asking them to accept at least one format that's actually standardised (again, as they used to).

The problem is, they need to produce LOTS of formats from your submitted file. They have made a convertor called The Meatgrinder. The Meatgrinder accepts MSWord files. The choice is perhaps not optimal, but what would you suggest if you had to choose ONE format as input format?
I can think of only one format that would be better - RTF.

I personally do not like MSWord. I am posting this from Linux machine (that I use at home for 99.5% of time) and when I have to use Windows (at work, for example, because AutoCAD and other software does not run anywhere else) I strongly prefer free software. My employer paid for a copy of MSOffice, I use OpenOffice.org whenever I can.
I have promised one author I that I would help him to prepare his book for publishing on Smashwords. When I read on Smashwords that "You should invest and buy MSWord, it is an excellent program", or something to that effect my blood pressure rose very sharply, so I can understand your feelings.

Having said that, I still think that MSWord as an input format for The Meatgrinder is a very reasonable choice.
TeX is technically superior, but tell me, how many writers would be able to submit properly formatted TeX file and how many can submit properly formatted MSWord file?

Please read the document that describes how is the MSWord file supposed to be formatted. If people kept to this excellent advice when creating MSWord documents, there would be much less problems with MSWord.

You have to understand that Smashwords produce several file formats for their site AND they prepare files for other outlets that distribute Smaswords documents. Each of those formats has very specific and quirky requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.smashwords.com

... the Apple iPad iBookstore(Smashwords is an authorized Apple Aggregator), Barnes & Noble, Sony, Kobo (our books also go to Borders and Samsung, powered by Kobo), the Diesel eBook Store, and soon, Amazon. Our books are also distributed into the native catalogs of top mobile e-reading apps such as Stanza on the iPhone and iPad (used by 3.5 million+ people) and Aldiko and Word-Player on Android devices. Your book is also available for immediate sale at Smashwords.com, our retail operation. Smashwords books are also promoted via a growing network of Smashwords affiliates.

nomesque · 10-03-2010, 05:10 PM

Frankly, I think they'd be better off doing what they've mentioned a couple of times that they want to do - allow the savvier publishers to upload non-groundup epub, mobi etc files straight to the server. Keep the .doc files and meatgrinder for the non-technically inclined, just give others a side door.

HistoryWes · 10-03-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomesque

Frankly, I think they'd be better off doing what they've mentioned a couple of times that they want to do - allow the savvier publishers to upload non-groundup epub, mobi etc files straight to the server. Keep the .doc files and meatgrinder for the non-technically inclined, just give others a side door.

Absolutely right.

neilmarr,
For many of us the choice of Smashwords is not about the formating (I would rather format by hand, providing a good set of tools) but the easy access to their distribution channels. It is the best way for writers to get into Sony, Diesel, B&N, Borders, Kobo, iBooks, and hopefully soon Amazon.

By the way, traditional publishers I've dealt with who accept online submissions have either asked for manuscripts in .doc or .rtf.

pigeonweather · 10-03-2010, 05:31 PM

It's been a continual annoyance for me as well. I use Ubuntu and the Open Office Doc version never seems to fit quite right for them, though I think I've finally figured out how they want it using Apple's Word version, but I have to do that on my work computer.

But a lot of that has been my fault. Smashwords doesn't really ask for too much - normal style formatting and simple paragraph returns - and I do appreciate how they get your books into those various outlets. I just seem to have to submit several times before I finally get it all the way they want it. I never have writer's block, but I do seem to have Word block!

Somehow Feedbooks does it from a simple copy-and-paste WYSIWYG operation - but they only do epub and mobi and pdf so maybe that explains it.

jaxx6166 · 10-03-2010, 06:58 PM

Where is Mark, he used to creep around here before SW got big. . .

Neil's right. SW does make it easy for idiots to publish. But so does LuLu and CreateSpace, even though you actually have to PAY CS for services. I think that may be part of the reason why we need a better filter for everything. Some way to separate the amateurs from the semi pro to the actual NY guys with backlists gathering dust. The problem then becomes a huge signal to noise ratio. With all sorts of people just saying "HEY! I wrote this in word. They like Word. Let me shove it up there." And then have it end up wherever it goes...blech.

It would make a huge difference if the SW "Premium" catalog actually featured "Premium" books....Mark, you listening?

Give them their own storefront, maybe hire a couple of CSRs to make sure that everything looks the way it should...

bthrowsnaill · 10-03-2010, 07:42 PM

I decided to use Smashwords because it saved me time vs. having to do detailed research on the various formats and outlets. It allowed me to publish quickly and gives me time to learn and educate myself about the epublishing scene at a more relaxed pace.
I use MS Word for similar reasons. It's available, relatively cheap, does what I want it to and I haven't had issues with it. Now, granted, as a first time author I may encounter problems down the road, but for now it has been smooth sailing.
I have read a number of accounts by people who seem almost religiously opposed to MS-Word. Piers Anthony is one of them. When I read about some of his experiences in open source word processing, I'm not exactly envious of the "other camp". Also, Microsoft is no longer the unassailable juggernaut that they once were. Google is around now and so it's OK to love Microsoft again imo (ok, maybe tolerance is a first step) .

jaxx6166 · 10-03-2010, 07:53 PM

You know what, I'm bored...and I should be writing.

So, I think I'm going to play. I just downloaded the style guide and stuck it on the 650. I'm going to format Beyond the Black according to Coker's Rules. We'll see how long this takes and what the output is compared to how I usually do my eBook formatting. Anyone else want to play with me?

CW Johnson · 10-03-2010, 07:57 PM

Give me a break, folks! They take your single file format, turn it into many file formats and distributes them all over the web...for free! What do you want for nothing, your money back?

MrPLD · 10-03-2010, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilmarr

In a nutshell, Paul. Smashwords is for amateurs and those who have no proper technical support. It should be a LAST resort and not a first. And this is no insult to Mark Coker and his system, which do at least provide a service of sorts. Neil

Agreed. I suspect a moderately large block of my discontentment here is that in this current day with the advocacy against DRM against lock-in and against closed standards we're running into the same old road blocks.

I have had a short conversation with Mark of Smashwords, everything was polite and fine but on the technical side things don't look to change too soon (for technical reasons).

Paul.

MrPLD · 10-03-2010, 10:32 PM

Okay, I'm going to move on now - I think that we've pretty much exhausted my point.

I'll leave this thread to either fall off the list or just be locked out.

Many thanks for the input and responses.

Regards,
Paul.

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10-03-2010, 10:42 AM	#2
mjhudston All round good egg Posts: 229 Karma: 1005039 Join Date: Oct 2008 Device: Apple Ipad 3rd Generation	have you actually researched smashwords? The input format is word because it is a standard. They then convert this using their meet grinder software, to provide outputs in various formats including lrf, PDF, pub, mobi and others.

10-03-2010, 10:56 AM	#4
MrPLD Author's pet-geek Posts: 933 Karma: 1040670 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Queensland, Australia Device: Kindle 3 Wifi, Onyx Boox M96	I should make it clear - I'm not asking them to not accept doc, rather I'm asking them to accept at least one format that's actually standardised (again, as they used to). Paul.

10-03-2010, 01:22 PM	#5
neilmarr neilmarr Posts: 7,215 Karma: 6000059 Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Monaco-Menton, France Device: sony	In a nutshell, Paul. Smashwords is for amateurs and those who have no proper technical support. It should be a LAST resort and not a first. And this is no insult to Mark Coker and his system, which do at least provide a service of sorts. Neil

10-03-2010, 05:10 PM	#7
nomesque Snooty Bestselling Author Posts: 1,485 Karma: 1000000 Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Ipswich, QLD, Australia Device: PRS-650	Frankly, I think they'd be better off doing what they've mentioned a couple of times that they want to do - allow the savvier publishers to upload non-groundup epub, mobi etc files straight to the server. Keep the .doc files and meatgrinder for the non-technically inclined, just give others a side door.

10-03-2010, 05:31 PM	#9
pigeonweather Enthusiast Posts: 37 Karma: 309654 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: California Device: Droid	It's been a continual annoyance for me as well. I use Ubuntu and the Open Office Doc version never seems to fit quite right for them, though I think I've finally figured out how they want it using Apple's Word version, but I have to do that on my work computer. But a lot of that has been my fault. Smashwords doesn't really ask for too much - normal style formatting and simple paragraph returns - and I do appreciate how they get your books into those various outlets. I just seem to have to submit several times before I finally get it all the way they want it. I never have writer's block, but I do seem to have Word block! Somehow Feedbooks does it from a simple copy-and-paste WYSIWYG operation - but they only do epub and mobi and pdf so maybe that explains it.

10-03-2010, 06:58 PM	#10
jaxx6166 Wizard Posts: 1,222 Karma: 769316 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eternal summer Device: 350, iPad, PW	Where is Mark, he used to creep around here before SW got big. . . Neil's right. SW does make it easy for idiots to publish. But so does LuLu and CreateSpace, even though you actually have to PAY CS for services. I think that may be part of the reason why we need a better filter for everything. Some way to separate the amateurs from the semi pro to the actual NY guys with backlists gathering dust. The problem then becomes a huge signal to noise ratio. With all sorts of people just saying "HEY! I wrote this in word. They like Word. Let me shove it up there." And then have it end up wherever it goes...blech. It would make a huge difference if the SW "Premium" catalog actually featured "Premium" books....Mark, you listening? Give them their own storefront, maybe hire a couple of CSRs to make sure that everything looks the way it should...

10-03-2010, 07:42 PM	#11
bthrowsnaill Dreamer Posts: 112 Karma: 501282 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Philadelphia, PA Device: kindle	I decided to use Smashwords because it saved me time vs. having to do detailed research on the various formats and outlets. It allowed me to publish quickly and gives me time to learn and educate myself about the epublishing scene at a more relaxed pace. I use MS Word for similar reasons. It's available, relatively cheap, does what I want it to and I haven't had issues with it. Now, granted, as a first time author I may encounter problems down the road, but for now it has been smooth sailing. I have read a number of accounts by people who seem almost religiously opposed to MS-Word. Piers Anthony is one of them. When I read about some of his experiences in open source word processing, I'm not exactly envious of the "other camp". Also, Microsoft is no longer the unassailable juggernaut that they once were. Google is around now and so it's OK to love Microsoft again imo (ok, maybe tolerance is a first step) .

10-03-2010, 07:53 PM	#12
jaxx6166 Wizard Posts: 1,222 Karma: 769316 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Eternal summer Device: 350, iPad, PW	You know what, I'm bored...and I should be writing. So, I think I'm going to play. I just downloaded the style guide and stuck it on the 650. I'm going to format Beyond the Black according to Coker's Rules. We'll see how long this takes and what the output is compared to how I usually do my eBook formatting. Anyone else want to play with me?

10-03-2010, 07:57 PM	#13
CW Johnson Member Posts: 16 Karma: 499240 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Magna Utah Device: iPod	Give me a break, folks! They take your single file format, turn it into many file formats and distributes them all over the web...for free! What do you want for nothing, your money back?

10-03-2010, 10:32 PM	#15
MrPLD Author's pet-geek Posts: 933 Karma: 1040670 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: North Queensland, Australia Device: Kindle 3 Wifi, Onyx Boox M96	Okay, I'm going to move on now - I think that we've pretty much exhausted my point. I'll leave this thread to either fall off the list or just be locked out. Many thanks for the input and responses. Regards, Paul.

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