There's no tautology involved. By natural morality I am referring to the idea that has been expressed here that it is possible to found morality on scientific principles, taking account of evolutionary imperatives. No god there, for the moment. But if you then show that there is a great variety of modes of evolutionary success, many of which you would *not* consider moral, then you need something that guarantees your choice of the one, or the ones, that you lean on to create your 'natural morality'. That is move 2 in the argument. Still no tautology, but we see a god appearing. That something cannot but be transcendental: ergo, you need god. If you are going to argue for a morality based on nature.
Quote:
Ah but if that is your claim you must demonstrate the existance of that supernatural being, which by definition you can't. Thus we are left with humans and human thoughts and beliefs.
|
I need make no such demonstration. I have, to my own great satisfaction, demonstrated that you cannot have a natural morality without god. If I have - as you argue - only humans with human thoughts and beliefs, then that's what I have. Neither god, nor any concept of natural morality are of any help to us. We need to found our ethical principles elsewhere. If we feel the need for ethical principles. (Clearly not all of us do).
Hobbes saw that in nature there is no such thing as Right and Wrong: men will defend their own interests and are quite right to do so. However, life will not be much fun. So as to bring some order into life, Hobbes looks to something artificial: the state. Morality is a construct, enforced by law and the sword.
I think that that is about right. The story of how state institutions developed, bringing with them the moral forms that we today consider self-evident, is a long and difficult one. In many ways, the ethical principles of pre-state groups seem far more attractive than do those of Leviathan (and some of Leviathan's progeny are extremely vile). But, as I've said before, I doubt very much that many of us would like to live in Zomia.