Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoon Man
Well, this has definitely gotten interesting. I applaud the verbal swordplay so far folks. However, as this is simply a friendly sparing match here, I suggest we put caps on the sharp ends.
Moejoe, my those values which I spoke of are the ones that I've derived from the reading that volatile piece of paper called the Constitution of the United States. There is a lot of crap in history books, there is a lot of heresay out there, and a lot of just plain false information. I'm talking form reading the constitution.
Now, Astra's comment I believe had to do with the fact that every time he tried to put out an idea he was personally attacked (something that a few of us have been trying to avoid). I've been trying to argue ideas, not people here.
America's actions in the past 20yrs (I'm not ignoring anything prior to this, but directly replying to the immediate history of current conflicts) worldwide have been deplorable, the government has lied, cheated, and stolen. We aren't denying this. We've been trying to change things internally to make them more open and make the government more accountable to the people who elect the people that best represent us.
I personally would love to see the world which you are talking about, but I don't believe it can happen. It is impossible to sit everyone down to have a discussion about what we want in the world. Someone will always be under-represented or left out. You can't rely in "responsible leaders" to make everything right for the world, because these people have not and never will exist.
We have countries so that people of like mind can be together, let the other people be together, and generally work towards their own interests. Its when people try to have a discussion like this that someone makes a personal attack, someone gets offended, and then conflict breaks out, wars start.
Now, I will say that there has not been a soldier that doesn't come home from war, having shot people, that have not second guessed every action they took. There is serious mental and emotional trauma associated with this (Pshrynk can better explain that), and its not something to be taken lightly. Only in movies have I seen "The heartless, mindless soldier". Happy_Terd could definitely talk about this, but I think hes staying out of this for the general good of the thread because too many people will argue the person and not the idea.
Folks, you can't change a person by offending them, but you can change them by making them see the errors in thought processes and potential plans. When you make a personal attack, it puts people in defensive mode, and turns off part of their ability to think logically about your ideas.
Sparrow, I think you are right. But this comes with understanding of others and the ability to accept different people while disagreeing with beliefs. You and I think alike a bit, I believe.
Astra, I am curious as to what Monster it is you speak of. I think you could be on to an interesting topic.
|
America's history is that of all Empires - conquest, violence, torture and brutality. Your constitution has never actually been followed, in spirit or in law during the lifespan of your country and it never will be as long as money and property are valued above life and liberty. I'm not just talking the last 20 years either which have America ranked as one of the highest in human rights abuses, I'm talking about Vietnam, the Philippines, Korea, Cuba, El Salvador, Grenada, Laos, Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chile, Argentina, Ireland, Israel (especially American involvement and money that funds the terrorism of the Israeli state) the list of countries and the poor people within those countries that America has slaughtered or helped slaughter is astounding (Britain too, most of ours was pre 1900, still no excuse).
Your endless support as a country for dictators and the setting up of puppet regimes is sickening. The shameless acts of the CIA in South American countries and across Europe boggles the mind. The torture camps, the disinformation, the lies, always the lies. Your constitution is a piece of paper designed by slave traders who wanted more freedom (shamelessly cribbed from George Carlin).
As long as Guantanemo exists, as long as Leonard Peltier remains in prison, as long as corporations get away with murder because they have money, as long as you continually execute the mentally handicapped, your constitution isn't even worthy as toilet paper. You do realise that most of the civilised world stopped executing criminals sixty years ago, don't you? Your country now is little more than a crumbling Empire, a laughing stock across the world, the enemy of most thinking people. You live in a slave nation where one of your biggest industries is imprisonment and law enforcement (look at all Empires and see the same). Your culture is money orientated, profit based and violent, so bloody violent that most people in the world look at you and wag their heads in disbelief. That constitution you say you try to uphold, means nothing. The freedoms it guarantees don't exist, the laws it means to uphold have been overturned, the life and liberty you are supposed to have as a people is reserved only for those who can afford such and those who can't afford such are the most vocal in supporting their own oppressors.
Maybe you don't understand this, but I know there are many Americans who do, every single time that flag flies it does not represent the best of what you can be or have been, no matter how hard you wish it could. The wars you've started, the freedoms you've taken in the name of your own freedom, the children and women who have died to add zeroes to a war profiteers bank balance. That's your real constitution. Your true legacy in the world.
Rome is burning, your flag is the seal of Empire. All Empire's fall. Yours is falling now and you just can't see it.