[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Spoon Man

Moejoe, you paint a picture that some people do fall in to, and unfortunately like children those people are rather loud and obnoxious and get a lot of attention.



There are those of us, however, that actually have (and still do) question the motives and actions of our "ancestors". We understand that our history is not of the greatest merit, but there are those things, those gems, that make us willing to stand by the flag set forth by those individuals and pledge allegiance to the idea that they had of our country.



I don't find myself very liking of those individuals which just spew what they've been told by their parents. And I don't like parents who don't encourage their children to see things for themselves. I don't believe that a functioning human being is one who does not realize the world for themselves. That being said, I believe that you and I are agreeing in this belief. I don't think we roll together with the same ideas of king and country, but that is all well and good.

So then your veneration of the flag is an illogical act without any true meaning beyond some kind of emotional attachment that was instilled during childhood? This is the only explanation I can come up with for your deference to a symbolic piece of cloth. You prove my hypothesis that what you (and most patriots) are really pledging allegiance toward is the notion of what once was (a wholly false notion when placed into historical context). You, in full knowledge as an adult human being, are aware of the atrocities, the damage and the inhuman acts carried out under the auspices of your flag and country, yet you still choose to believe and stand by the flag and country as a person, ignoring all the verifiable bad and instead putting your faith (and this is the only word that can be used) in the made up notions of what once was.

There is no logical reason in your continued relationship with the flag. The symbol, the notions of which you speak as though they belonged only to that flag, your country and those who formed your country (slavers to a man), needs neither flags, national identity nor veneration, although said notions are to be admired wherever and in whomever they occur.

For me it's not the unthinking patriots that do the most harm (they're too stupid to know the difference and are truly children in every aspect), but those, like you, who are willing with full knowledge to remain diligent to an invented notion of country that was instilled in them at a young age and that has never been true. You, and those like you, are the most dangerous of all patriots, because you are the ones who after rational investigation of the facts decided that you will ignore the evidence and carry on as though the evidence no longer matters or should matter. It is the same behaviour that occurs in cults and religions. The same childlike willingness to give into authority figures and their voices that guarantees the ideas of freedom you're told you have, that you salute when you salute the flag, will never actually occur to yourself or those near to you.