[afa]

Thanks for that link, mr. ploppy. That article certainly is better than the questionable one given earlier. And, I might add, quite illuminating.

Originally Posted by Dusty Bottoms

For the sake of brevity, and because I've been having this same argument with the same people for the last year and a half, I omitted evidence. But, here it is again, for the hard of learning

Your Join Date is given as April 2010, so I doubt you've been giving this argument for a year and a half, at least not over here. So the fact I haven't seen that evidence isn't because I'm hard of learning, it's because I don't follow you around on the Internet or in your personal life to know what arguments you've made elsewhere.

Here's a random one because I'm just so tired of this argument and I'm not digging up ten just to prove the point: http://adage.com/digital/article?article_id=138587

Any researcher worth his salt will tell you that survey results are debatable. And specially when it comes to surveys paid for by a party or group with a vested interest in one particular outcome... well.

This survey was paid for by Vuze; hardly an objective third party. Would you also gladly accept the results of a survey paid for by Koch Industries (Google 'Koch Industries' and 'biggest polluter' to see why I mentioned them) that showed there is no such thing as global warming?

Simply changing the word of any argument can alter the meaning completely and make the argument into something else. Faulty logic, and ill thought out. If I call a monkey a politician it doesn't make the politician a monkey (although nine times out of ten it would be hard to check). Not really worth a rebuttle, but, hey, I've got some time to spare at the moment.

You're right. Your answer wasn't worth it. Mainly because it was way off base. The change I made didn't change the meaning. It merely turned your argument back against you. Something I did to demonstrate that such righteous indignation can be said by anyone about anything.

Publishers aren't obsolete, nobody said they were (except you) but they do need to change their business model and take their head out of the sand before they do become obsolete.

And I guess we should all just take your word for it.

They have to adapt to an ongoing situation (which they seem to be wilfully ignoring, like many people in this argument).

I assure you, there is plenty of ignorance on display here on both sides of the fence.

As to copyright it has become effectively useless for independent creators who can't hope to financially defend the illusion of their ownership.

If someone can't afford to spend what it takes to defend their ownership, that's unfortunate, but it's not an argument in favour of abolishing copyright altogether. One could, for example, create an organisation or group that would pool together resources to fight such battles on behalf of authors that can't do it on their own.

Copyright benefits corporations and those who can afford the lawyers to protect the copyright, nobody else.

Laws allowing individuals to launch suits against corporations that have harmed them are also only beneficial to those that can afford the legal fees. Since not everyone can, should we just get rid of them entirely? Just say 'tough luck' to, say, the people whose water supply has been poisoned by scrupulous chemical plants?

And when I say we (italics all mine), I do mean all of us. I mean the creators, the audience and anyone else who wants to see creativity flourish and not be nailed down by corporates.

Neither you nor any one of the other 'good guys' have said anything that proves abolishing copyright will necessarily help creativity flourish, nor that existing copyright is preventing the same. You say it is, but that's just your words against someone else's.

I am absolutely willing to see the supposed errors of my ways, with a sound argument based on facts and irrefutable logic and evidence, but no one here has yet succeeded in doing that. All I see are personal anecdotes, hearsay, vague but grandiose platitudes, and self-serving proclamations.

Well I'm so glad that you don't have an iron in this fire, yet you want to give us all a heads up one what we as creators should do. However would we make decisions on what we should do creatively without people to tell us what they think who don't really care one way or the other?

What a pointless remark. In any case, I assure you, your own opinions on what other creators should do carry absolutely no more (or less) weight than mine. So please, do leave the attitude at home.

And for the record, I couldn't care less about "what [you] should do creatively without people to tell [you] what they think".