[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Myth! This story exists in thousands of permutations. Hydrogen extraction from H2O is an energy intensive process. It takes more energy to separate the molecule into components than the recombination produces. Period. Law of thermodynamics. It would be exactly like the mythical perpetual engine.

That's disappointing to hear. I had thought the whole "takes more energy to sepereate the hydrogen than you get from burning it" thing was simply a matter of the processes we currently use to seperate the hydrogen. Didn't know it was a fundamental law of thermodynamics that there is no possible way to achieve a net positive amount of energy.

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

I don't have space enough to discuss the economics here. All I'll say is that if oil is to fall out of preference as a transportation fuel, those who profit from its sale will wish to fall back on an other source; an other fuel, one they can control and own. The biggest idiocy I've heard is that one company wanted to extract hydrogen from oil!!!!!!!!

I'm sure those who profit from fuel will do anything they can to continue to do so.

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Hydrogen will not be as efficient as electrics. They can't get tanks big enough for more than a 100 miles range. The efficiency cycle of hydrogen is even less than that of the ICE which in turn is less than an EV's powered by PVs.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that petrol ICE efficiency is somewhere around 30% and I've heard diesel is close to 40%. In 2008 an Australian team from the University of Melbourne presented plans for a hydrogen engine with 40% efficieny and said they believed they could get better efficiency than that. So Hydrogen is not so very far behind ICE's and may end up even better. As for hydrogen storage tanks, that still is a problem however with more efficient engines there would be less need for large quantities of hydrogen to be stored.

The fact Norway(I think, but it might be the Netherlands) are building a national highway network dotted with hydrogen fuel stations leads me to think the idea of hydrogen fuelled cars can't be totally unworkable.

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Of course the present oil economy will lose benefit from this if ever EVs were manufactured. What would happen to the economy if everyone could manufacture their own fuels? Unthinkable, of course...
With Hybrids they make a more complex vehicle that costs more. Katching!!!
A plug-in hybrid MUST have its gas engine run frequently to keep it healthy. Katching!!!
Service of hybrid vehicles is more expensive

Again, agreed, I'm sure those who profit from fuel consumption will do all they can to continue to profit from it. Nothing new in that idea.

Originally Posted by yvanleterrible

Tell me PKFFW, what kind of breakthrough do you want to happen with electric vehicles to allow manufacture? As they are they can provide more that 90% of one's needs. Isn't that enough for those who want them? Why don't they want us to have them? Why do they stifle anyone who want's to build them? Why do we let them dictate that to us?.........Katching!!!.....

I never said anything about wanting a breakthrough to allow manufacture. By all means, let there be electric cars. I've got no problem with that. Let all who find EV's suit their needs buy one. I've got no problem with that. If one comes along that suits my needs at a price I can afford I will even buy one. Presently, they do not. The type of breakthrough I would be looking for is one that allows a car to do what I want it to do. What 95% of other people do with their cars doesn't interest me.

Another thing to consider is whether EV's are really all that better for the environment. As has been pointed out, PV cells currently can't possibly be used for full recharging requirements. Even if they can in the future they require that there never be a cloudy day when you want to charge your car. Mother nature is unlikely to be so accomodating. Therefore electricity produced in other ways is going to be needed. Pretty much every electricity production today is "unclean" in some way. And those production methods that are clean are not available in such quantities needed to recharge all these electric cars. So we are swapping one type of harmful emmissions for an increase in another type. Will the trade off be better for the environment? I don't know.

EV's would reduce relience upon oil which is a good thing but they shouldn't be considered the pancea for all the worlds ills.

Cheers,
PKFFW