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Originally Posted by Logseman
If I'm stumbing against beliefs, against the belief that I'm lying or that I'm dishonest (which is implied by your statement), we may of course leave the discussion. I won't bear to be insulted by my word being taken as a lie, for I haven't taken and will not take yours as such. If something ought to be clear is that we're two honest people sharing points of view about a topic. Or is it that, since I "steal" as you say, I deserve to be treated as a crook?
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Again, I am not calling you a liar here. I really believe that you have convinced yourself of that, but when the time comes you would take the money. My reasons for this belief is that you brought up the money, and your stated belief that you should get as much as you can for the least money. If I am wrong in this belief, I apologize. And one more time, I am stating that I belive you are not lying but have convinced yourself of this.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
Ta-daaa! Thanks to the magic labeling process, now I'm an Anarchist without me having said a word about it myself. If you want my stance, I consider myself a Strabic Bigot, aka Strabigot for briefness's sake. If you want to know what it is (though I count that you won't) I'll merrily explain it where you wish.
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You have said multiple times you support an anarchist organization. You have also espoused ideas supported by anarchist. So that leads me to believe you are anarchist. I think that is a rational and logical deduction.
As for considering yourself a Strabic Bigot, that is great. I would like to know more about it if it is not something that was created for your own personal use at some time in the past. I did do a search in Google and Wikipedia and found nothing for either of those terms. Of course there is nothing wrong with you creating a name for your own personal views. I consider it a good thing if it helps a person to formulate and analyze their beliefs. Unfortunately, I don't have time to listen to every single person's beliefs. I can only spend time on learning about it if it really affects a fair number of people. So if it is a recognized group, please send me info on it by personal mail.
BTW, I consider myself a Rational Anarchist.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
Aside of that, I've given my reasoning that it's not stealing if it's not physical property, which actually causes a loss of value if it's stolen: on the contrary, intellectual property is how they manage to put fences on the sea. However, let us take your words and follow the logic: thwarting someone's prospects of income is stealing. How can any new business be opened then? By its very creation, it implies more competition against the other firms of its industry. Those other firms or individual businesses will possibly be less profitable, thus their prospects of income are thwarted and, well, that is something we cannot allow, can we?
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The problem here is that you are looking at this as merely thwarting someone else's prospects of income. In reality it is taking something that doesn't belong to you. You can artificially make distinctions about physical or non-physical property.
So where does it stop? Maybe it is alright to steal someone's car if it red instead of another car? Or you can take someone's home if they live on the left side of the street? I know that those two examples seem absurd, but so does the idea of stealing property because it is non-physical IMO.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
Do not think it's a reductio ad absurdum: it happens already. We only have to ask about banks, insurance companies, doctors, lawyers and a wide array of industries where there are huge entrance barriers. After all, letting more competition would menace the revenues of those who're "In The Money" as poker players say.
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This part is just plain stupid and you should be embarassed for posting it. The entrance barriers for those fields of commerce have nothing to do with limiting competition or the revenues of others.
I guess you want to go see the doctor who has no medical training and is a high school drop out. Or maybe you want to buy insurance from a guy who has no reserves to pay you from?
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Originally Posted by Logseman
A-ha! I was considered dishonest, and now I have the mindset of a psychopath. Downloading things from the darknet is not only communism, as that old mock poster said, it's even a mental sickness.
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I never mentioned communism. What I pointed out that your stated belief in breaking any law that you can get away with is in common with a pyschopath. If you disagree with that, I suggest you look it up.
As I said earler, this is not being said to be offensive. Nor am I saying that you are actually a pyschopath. I am saying that your stated beliefs are in line with one.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
The state is an autonomous body inside society, not society itself. Such a synecdoche is usual, so I can understand your stance. Nevertheless, confounding chaos with spontaneous order is one of the biggest hazards in understanding what we're talking about. I never denied that you need rules in a society, I just claim the state, as an organisation which resorts to aggresion, is not legitimated to give them. That leaves a huge quantity of individuals to set up their own laws and codes, as they actually do today. At any rate, your choice of words is interesting: "either you obey or you must be prepared to face the consequences"... Capisce?
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I did not say that the state is the total society. I realize that it is a part of society as a whole. So the mistake in understanding that was your own.
Since the state gets it power from the society as a whole, your idea that it is an organization that is not legitimate to make rules is flawed IMO. I will agree that there are codes of conduct that come from both larger and smaller parts of the society.
My words "either you obey or you must be prepared to face the consequences" may have been more clear, so let me make it clear now. If you steal a car, you face the possible jail time. You kill someone, you may face the death penalty. You steal electronic products, you may face fines, jail time, and/or lawsuits. You committ civil disobediance you may face a night in jail. Now is that clear?
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Originally Posted by Logseman
I established the example of black markets as an example of spontaneous organisation which rises from the opposition of the State to the ingenious initiative of the individuals. Those psychopaths will try and get away with selling rationated items out of the ration system.
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And as they try to get away with committing their crimes, they tend to hurt those around them. To say otherwise is either to be living in a fantasy world or to be dishonest.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
For the second statement, I'll leave a small graph,popular in Econ 101 course, to explain the matter:
Compare the efficiency area below the "price ceiling" bar with the market efficiency area which comes from crossing the demand and supply functions. Which is bigger? |
I don't see how this is relevant. Maybe you can make this more clear.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
It's interesting how noone asks people who pay taxes in the Cayman Islands to consider themselves affected by their own country's laws. It is just us, the ones who have no other way but paying our taxes, who shall submit to the strongest rulings.
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Totally different things. You might as well compare apples to door knobs.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
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Very funny, but worthless. Nor have I said that your actions are the fault of society at large. It is MO that the society at large thinks the action of stealing is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
Consumers' choices try to maximize their enjoyment and welfare. Producers' choices try to maximize their profits (their ideal being eternal revenue sources). They do everything what is in their power to arrive to such status. But then again, do not pay heed to my psychopathic mumbles.
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Consumers' choice do try to maximize their enjoyment and welfare, but in legal means. It does not include theft anymore than it includes armed robbery.
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Originally Posted by Logseman
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For the "old people buy - young people download" disyunction, I'd like to point out a small bit: young people download content for their elders too.
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Well some do. I would bet that this is not as rampant as you think. I will admit I don't have proof of that and I could be wrong in that area.