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Originally Posted by WT Sharpe
Are you saying that all concepts of right and wrong are completely arbitrary? If so, I would have to disagree. Certainly many modes of behavior vary from culture to culture, but I believe that there are certain standards that transcend cultures; among these are the proscriptions against murder and stealing from members of your tribe; and as civilization advances, I believe it to be a natural and evolutionary step to become ever more inclusive in terms of those who are included in the tribe. Even among individual tribes certain expectations of behavior exist such that when those expectations are violated, retribution is exacted.
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Yes, I think there's no such thing as absolute right or wrong. There are certainly things to do that are beneficial to some society at some time, or harmful to it, and so can be called right and wrong for it, but those aren't absolute, and I don't think people are able to determine what is beneficial or harmful to some society with preciseness and certainty - when applying fixes which are results of such "reasoning", it always turns out society is more complicated, and there are side-effects, or the "fix" makes things worse.
Murder itself can be a way to let natural selection work again on societies that would degenerate without it, and it may well be beneficial to society as a whole when there are more people than living space. Same with stealing, as it may increase survival chances. Besides, there are forms of stealing, practiced by corporations, and murder, practised by various state security forces, which barely anyone calls absolutely immoral.
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Originally Posted by PKFFW
Whilst I agree there are situations where the concepts of right and wrong are not relevant or necessary or in fact should be put aside for some reason, I find it amazing you would say a man should be expected "stop reasoning with those" simply as a matter of course.
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Perhaps I voiced my opinion too strongly; I meant that if one does reason with such, the results of reasoning will be flawed, and usually untrue. People make many such small choices every day, based on incomplete or possibly false information, to get results which are good enough for them. For such practical results it's fine. Still, reasoning in such a way when making decisions influencing whole course of life, or other people's lives, is very foolish in my opinion.
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Originally Posted by PKFFW
Without getting into a debate about what is right and wrong, cultural differences and "lesser of two evil" type situations, surely in any matter where the concepts of right and wrong matter it is the mark of a reasonable person to do what is right if at all possible.(at the very least as "right" is defined for that person)
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Definitely. If a person has a strong feeling of what is right, such person will do it no matter if it makes sense - suicides are plenty, to point out the obvious.
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Originally Posted by PKFFW
I do not think there should ever come a time when a person should be expected to "stop reasoning" with those ideas. George W Bush and his ilk are perfect examples of people who have no regard for right and wrong, preferring instead to reason by what is best for them and their wallets.
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Actually, they're at least predictable. While I don't think there's any system of government that can manage self-interested, egoistical people, those are manageable. It's those who have their own concepts of "right" and "wrong" and live by them that I'm afraid of. One day one of those altruistic idealists will launch the nuclear missiles for the good of mankind - it would never happen with simple egoists.
That reminds me of a movie - "2012". In there, we have President's Chief of Staff who is a realist and makes really informed decisions that assure the survival of maximal number of people, a geologist with concepts of right and wrong who feels those can't be the very best decisions because some people will die, and doesn't show even traces of logical thinking, and a science fiction novelist, similarly encumbered. I was amazed through the whole movie watching how those two people living in the land of pink unicorns are portrayed as good ones, and the practical, reasoning specialist as a bad person - to the point where at the end they make him make a completely idiotical decision just to be able to show that those two were for once "right" with their feelings. I don't understand where this world is going, when people think it's better to be completely wacko, not understand reality one bit, but show humane feelings than to be a competent specialist, a person in the right place, making informed choices, having to choose lesser evils all the time, and being good at it and not broken by responsibility.