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alex_d · 06-09-2007, 03:23 AM

Using python on the command line is very interesting, and you're right about command-line scripting. In general, automation of tasks is something that a GUI sorely lacks (despite some limited solutions). That's why right after my rant I asked if someone had a command-line html renderer for my command-line script RasterFarian (I wonder if anyone noticed the irony.)

However, in terms of applications themselves, I still stand adamantly behind my point that steep learning curves stop people from learning new tools and features, stop people from developing new tools and features (since few will adopt them), and halt progress of the entire industry.

Again, I agree with your point that if I spent as much time on the command-line as I do on windows (although recently I've been working with a shell nearly every day), I would find learning new programs easier. BUT, without a shadow of a doubt, the learning curve would always be far steeper than with GUI programs. When you say that learning new command-line tools is easy, I'll bet you're thinking of simple tools (in fact trivial in comparison to GUI shareware). A command-line tool that has the same number of features and settings as a typical shareware app will be more difficult to get working in some sort of way, more difficult to get it working in exactly the way that you want, and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will be far more difficult to find the useful features that you didn't know about and weren't already trying to find.

But the biggest problem I have with command-line tools is in the hypocrisy. You're always told to "read the fucking manual." Alright, in some ways this is a reasonable position to argue. However, why does the fn manual invariable FN SUCK. Command-line tools have the WORST manuals. In part the presentation is ridiculous. The man command has no links, no cross-references. Man pages are designed to be displayed on a 80x24 character screen which means that most of the time they are unreasonably terse. And because there is no way to say "well, you can print, copy, and pageanate" all the explanations have to be dumped on the screen right away. Not only do the man pages not say enough, they also say way too much! You can't get a quick outline, you can't get a good explanation.

Why does windows, which doesn't subscribe to RTFM, has had excellently cross-referenced html manuals built for 15 years, and all sorts of searching ability across local and online help for 5 years, while linux, which tells you to always rtfm, has crap?

How damn preposterous is that?

If it wasn't for google and discussion boards, I don't think i'd be able to do a single thing in linux. Meanwhile, I was able to master Windows without looking anything up (and hundreds of millions of people have too). THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUI AND COMMAND LINE. Thank god for the visionaries at xerox, apple, and microsoft.

Ironically enough, though, I write shell scripts and you write GUIs.

So I think I appreciate the benefits of CLI to the same degree that you already know how important it is to make a GUI to get people to learn, use, and adopt your program. It's not just about selecting things from lists.

06-09-2007, 03:23 AM	#44
alex_d Addict Posts: 303 Karma: 187 Join Date: Dec 2006 Device: Sony Reader	Using python on the command line is very interesting, and you're right about command-line scripting. In general, automation of tasks is something that a GUI sorely lacks (despite some limited solutions). That's why right after my rant I asked if someone had a command-line html renderer for my command-line script RasterFarian (I wonder if anyone noticed the irony.) However, in terms of applications themselves, I still stand adamantly behind my point that steep learning curves stop people from learning new tools and features, stop people from developing new tools and features (since few will adopt them), and halt progress of the entire industry. Again, I agree with your point that if I spent as much time on the command-line as I do on windows (although recently I've been working with a shell nearly every day), I would find learning new programs easier. BUT, without a shadow of a doubt, the learning curve would always be far steeper than with GUI programs. When you say that learning new command-line tools is easy, I'll bet you're thinking of simple tools (in fact trivial in comparison to GUI shareware). A command-line tool that has the same number of features and settings as a typical shareware app will be more difficult to get working in some sort of way, more difficult to get it working in exactly the way that you want, and MOST IMPORTANTLY it will be far more difficult to find the useful features that you didn't know about and weren't already trying to find. But the biggest problem I have with command-line tools is in the hypocrisy. You're always told to "read the fucking manual." Alright, in some ways this is a reasonable position to argue. However, why does the fn manual invariable FN SUCK. Command-line tools have the WORST manuals. In part the presentation is ridiculous. The man command has no links, no cross-references. Man pages are designed to be displayed on a 80x24 character screen which means that most of the time they are unreasonably terse. And because there is no way to say "well, you can print, copy, and pageanate" all the explanations have to be dumped on the screen right away. Not only do the man pages not say enough, they also say way too much! You can't get a quick outline, you can't get a good explanation. Why does windows, which doesn't subscribe to RTFM, has had excellently cross-referenced html manuals built for 15 years, and all sorts of searching ability across local and online help for 5 years, while linux, which tells you to always rtfm, has crap? How damn preposterous is that? If it wasn't for google and discussion boards, I don't think i'd be able to do a single thing in linux. Meanwhile, I was able to master Windows without looking anything up (and hundreds of millions of people have too). THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GUI AND COMMAND LINE. Thank god for the visionaries at xerox, apple, and microsoft. Ironically enough, though, I write shell scripts and you write GUIs. So I think I appreciate the benefits of CLI to the same degree that you already know how important it is to make a GUI to get people to learn, use, and adopt your program. It's not just about selecting things from lists.