[PKFFW]

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

What do you mean, even under the law? What I was say is that everyone should be treated the same under the law. And if they aren't it is either a problem with the people or the law, any of which should be corrected.

Ok, agreed everyone should be treated the same under the law.

However, everyone is clearly not treated the same under the law.

Therefore, to argue that "so long as everyone is treated the same under the law then it should be up to the individual to pay for their own health care" is like saying "so long as there are invisible pink elephants in my back yard the government should pay for everyone's health care."

Do you see that if it is not reality then what's the point in arguing that is the way it should be?

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

I don't think I was clear about where I was coming from. That is a picture (below) of me with with the past Libertarian candidate for President Bob Barr (It was summer of last year I believe). Now, I'm not a libertarian; I'm an Objectivist from Southern Louisiana of all places and I have dealt with racism before. The last time was when I was pulled over in Maryland because it was 2am and the cops thought I had a white woman in the car with me (she was a light skinned hispanic). But there was nothing in the law that caused them to do that and mo law isn't going to change whats in their hearts.

Then it would seem clear that you should realise that not everyone is treated equally under the law. Therefore why argue that if everyone were then it would be ok for everyone to pay for their own health care?

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

I keep pressing the phrase "under the law" and you're still not hearing me. As individuals, we're not equal. I'm smarter then some people, some are smarter then me. I've been healthy my whole life, worst thing I've ever had was strep throat when I was nine. Why should I be forced to pay for other peoples health care? If I do get sick, I have insurance and I can pay the rest or get a loan for it. If someone I care about gets sick, I can help them out IF I WANT TO. Its my life, my money, and it should be my choice.

See this is the crux of it. You are ok and you have money to pay for your health care should you get sick. Therefore you shouldn't be "forced to pay for someone elses health care".

What about those others, who are not treated as "equally" as you or others, who can not afford their own health care? Sucks to be them but oh well.

There are socio-economic realities that can not be solved by saying "get off your lazy ass and get a job and pay your own way". It is unfortunate that many in the USA do not wish to recognise or acknowledge this fact.

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

Common decency? And who defines that? Whatever the collectivist say it is? Where I'm from it isn't enforced by the point of a gun. As for healthy people and society, well you're right. Healthy, educated people are better for it. But the way you want to achieve that is by the most immoral way possible, at the point of a gun.

And in case you think I'm kidding (I'm not sure where you're from) in America if you don't pay your taxes then don't attend the inevitable court seizing your assets, men with guns are going to come to your house to take you away and if you resist they may very well shot you.

Ok if you don't think it is "common decency" to want to help your fellow man so be it, I wont argue the point with you.

As for not paying your taxes.......no one will shoot you if you don't pay them. They may shoot you if you get violent when they come to repossess your house but not simply because you haven't paid your taxes.

Originally Posted by Kosst Amojan

The Preamble to the Constitution of the United States

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

And just to shoot down a bad argument I've heard too many time, James Madison, the principle author of the Constitution states the general welfare clause granted Congress no additional powers other than those enumerated within the Constitution.

That however is a restriction on the federal government, except for defense and federal police (another story there) all of it is run by the various states. But the only just function of government is protecting the rights of the individual, period.

I get it already, the Federal Government of the USA doesn't have the authority to provide socialised health care.

That is why I asked, if it is ok for any government body to provide any socialised services why then should it not be ok for that same government body to provide health care? Why should health care be different to education? Why should health care be different to a police service or fire brigade? Why should not everyone have to pay for their own personal teachers for their children? Or pay for their own private police service and fire brigade?

Cheers,
PKFFW