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HansTWN · 07-01-2009, 03:24 AM

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Neokami: Slight correction: third tone ma (mǎ) means "horse" (among other things). The "ma" used to form a question is "fifth tone".

Complications to learning Japanese (which I studied formally for 2 years in college and on-and-off informally for 20 years since):

1 - It is not closely related to any other human language. (There are some structural similarities to Finnish, of all things, but those are assumed to be coincidental.) This affects vocabulary as well as grammar.

2 - It has three separate writing systems (katakana, hirigana, and kanji), and literacy requires using all three correctly, often within the same document. Only kanji bears any resemblance to any other writing system (Chinese), but is not identical to either traditional nor simplified characters. Each kanji may have several possible phonetic readings, depending on whether it is representing part of a native Japanese word or a borrowed Chinese word.

3 - Speech registers are driven by social politeness rules. For example, women use a different term when referring to themselves ("watashi") than men, who are more likely to use "boku"-- except in formal situations. Relative status of two speakers dictates which grammatical forms need to be used by each. Pronouns are usually left out completely. The Japanese culture is highly contextual and a lot of things are left unsaid.

5 - There is a tone system, but it is not like the tone system in Chinese, or even Bantu languages, acting more like a stress marker rather than a phonetic component."

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Yes, third tone ma also mean horse 馬 (depending on which Kanji is used). But the the question indicator 嗎 ma is also third tone. There is no real "fifth" tone in Mandarin -- though some people say there is a toneless sound, the so called "ping sheng", which only exists for a few sounds. An example would be "de" 的, the Chinese equivalent of the Japanese "no", indicating possession.

Hiragana and Katakana are alphabets of (if I remember correctly, around 50 characters each). So that is no problem to learn and you could, theoretically, correspond with a Japanese on the basis of these two, only. Of course, each Kanji can have a number of different pronounciations and meanings. Same in Chinese, almost every character has numerous meanings, and some have several pronounciations. Like 行 which can be "xing" and "hang".

The social politeness rules were exactly what I was referring to.

Every language has some sort of tones (for stress). Even English.Teak and tick would are really just tonal variations of the same syllable, but teak would be 2nd or 3rd tone and tick would be 4th tone. That alone doesn't make it a tonal language.

I agree with you that it would be difficult to achieve perfection in Japanese, but conversational and writing ability is not that much of a problem. That was my point.

07-01-2009, 03:24 AM	#113
HansTWN Wizard Posts: 4,538 Karma: 264065402 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Taiwan Device: HP Touchpad, Sony Duo 13, Lumia 920, Kobo Aura HD	------------- Neokami: Slight correction: third tone ma (mǎ) means "horse" (among other things). The "ma" used to form a question is "fifth tone". Complications to learning Japanese (which I studied formally for 2 years in college and on-and-off informally for 20 years since): 1 - It is not closely related to any other human language. (There are some structural similarities to Finnish, of all things, but those are assumed to be coincidental.) This affects vocabulary as well as grammar. 2 - It has three separate writing systems (katakana, hirigana, and kanji), and literacy requires using all three correctly, often within the same document. Only kanji bears any resemblance to any other writing system (Chinese), but is not identical to either traditional nor simplified characters. Each kanji may have several possible phonetic readings, depending on whether it is representing part of a native Japanese word or a borrowed Chinese word. 3 - Speech registers are driven by social politeness rules. For example, women use a different term when referring to themselves ("watashi") than men, who are more likely to use "boku"-- except in formal situations. Relative status of two speakers dictates which grammatical forms need to be used by each. Pronouns are usually left out completely. The Japanese culture is highly contextual and a lot of things are left unsaid. 5 - There is a tone system, but it is not like the tone system in Chinese, or even Bantu languages, acting more like a stress marker rather than a phonetic component." ---- Yes, third tone ma also mean horse 馬 (depending on which Kanji is used). But the the question indicator 嗎 ma is also third tone. There is no real "fifth" tone in Mandarin -- though some people say there is a toneless sound, the so called "ping sheng", which only exists for a few sounds. An example would be "de" 的, the Chinese equivalent of the Japanese "no", indicating possession. Hiragana and Katakana are alphabets of (if I remember correctly, around 50 characters each). So that is no problem to learn and you could, theoretically, correspond with a Japanese on the basis of these two, only. Of course, each Kanji can have a number of different pronounciations and meanings. Same in Chinese, almost every character has numerous meanings, and some have several pronounciations. Like 行 which can be "xing" and "hang". The social politeness rules were exactly what I was referring to. Every language has some sort of tones (for stress). Even English.Teak and tick would are really just tonal variations of the same syllable, but teak would be 2nd or 3rd tone and tick would be 4th tone. That alone doesn't make it a tonal language. I agree with you that it would be difficult to achieve perfection in Japanese, but conversational and writing ability is not that much of a problem. That was my point. Last edited by HansTWN; 07-01-2009 at 03:29 AM.