[bhartman36]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Gee, well, let's see .... self employed and I just received a little over $69,000 from my last client who was extremely satisfied with my work. I happen to be one of those people who not only knows how to use a computer, but also how to build one. I am also one of those people who makes a living knowing the English language and how to use it, properly.

I'm very happy for you. As I said before, I assume you're competent at your job, considering the fact that you're still employed at it.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

You would also have to be willing to do a thorough search of the government documents of all 50 states. There are a number of them that use "thru" quite extensively. I know because I do a lot of research into both state and federal filings of all types. Generally at $500 an hour.

Fair enough. I didn't make an exhaustive search of it, obviously. Had I intended to do so, I probably would've accessed some government databases. (I used to work as a searcher, but I have since switched fields.)

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Yes, much more explicit. Your post made it sound as if she taught English at a graduate level. In which case, I really have no reason to be the slightest bit impressed with her credentials, since I only have them second hand from you.

If I told you her credentials, it probably wouldn't mean anything to you, anyway (other than the fact that she's a postdoc in her chosen field, I suppose). I'm still having trouble seeing what that has to do with anything. What I said in my original statement was that she had graduate students that couldn't write. On that basis, it would make no difference where she had gotten her degree from, or what classes she taught.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

My mother, on the other hand, actually did teach English at the university level. In fact, she began university studies when she was all of 15, and was on the faculty of the university by the time she was 19. She got tired of being the youngest person in the class and also being the teacher.

That's nice. And that's relevent because...? I assume your mother taught classes well before texting came to the forefront, and certainly before undergraduates were texting. If that's not true, then I suppose her experiences in that realm are relevant.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Oh, my ..... Library Science. I guess that counts as being an expert on the English language in some alternative universe.

Okay, seriously... Do you actually think before you type, or does it all just sort of come to you as a revelation? Do you even know what skills are required for library science at a graduate level? Let me give you a little hint: I didn't mention anything about sciences in my background, did I? Do you think that was possibly intentional on my part, then?

As it happens, I have a decent amount of computer knowledge (on the software side), which certainly helped in grad school, but it was mainly the strength of my language skills that got me in the door (as I had little on my school record that would suggest computer skills, and most computer work was instead on my resume).

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

You don't remember your GPA? Do you remember where you went to school??

As a matter of fact, I do, yes. I went to Rutgers, in Piscataway. Ranked #5 in the country for Library Science, at the time, if it actually matters.

I don't remember my GPA at the time because it actually didn't matter to me. What mattered to me was graduating and getting a job. I imagine it was probably 3.7 or so. The only class I really struggled with was the stats class.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I don't remember my SAT score. I do remember that there was an article in the San Diego Union about it at the time. There were a few of us in the County that scored in the 99th percentile on both the Verbal and Math sections of the test. I was one of those. I found the article among my mother's effects when she died ... along with my IQ test scores (didn't make me run out and join Mensa, since I'm not fond of the group, but it was shockingly high).

Very nice for you. It sounds like your mother was understandably proud.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I was also the recipient of an honors award in both English and Mathematics at my high school. Doesn't mean all that much, but they were nice awards to receive.

Again, very nice for you.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Yep, I'll bet they are very obvious reasons. And, if that was your only point, then you didn't make it well. Your post came off as more of a tirade against anyone who uses any abbreviations or words or phrases of which you personally do not approve. Further, that those who do so are illiterate. As one of those people, I find your assumption to be as offensive as it gets.

I don't think you read what I wrote carefully enough. In my original post, I specifically said:

Originally Posted by bhartman36

I'm not a fan of leetspeak, or of texting leaking into the English lexicon. Having said that, I can't deny that pwned is a word, simply on that basis alone. Written and spoken words are only symbolic. As long as two or more people agree on what a particular set of written or spoken symbols mean, it's a word, in a literal sense. Its presence or absense in a dictionary ("Who's dictionary?" is also an interesting question) is immaterial. Shakespeare made up words all the time, and you don't hear people complaining about that, do ya?

My "tirade", as you call it, was directed at texting language outside of the context of text messaging:

Originally Posted by bhartman36

On the other hand, I'm not a big fan of people texting phonetically. When you text phonetically, you're not making up a new word. You're just being lazy with your spelling. ("C u l8r." is not a collection of words, let alone a sentence.) If you're using an already-existing word in the English (or any other) language, you have to use conventional English rules to spell that word as it's properly spelled. It's not even so much that I object to people using that stuff amongst themselves. What I more resent is them not keeping their language in context, and allowing it to spew all over conventional speech, where it makes no sense and doesn't belong. (There are certain things that teke longer to type in text "language" than in English.)

I believe these statements are clear.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Well, as one of "such students," (although I have been out of the last graduate program for close to 20 years now) who feels just fine reading "words" such as "pwned" and "cul8tr," again, I take offense at your suggestion that we are somehow incapable of graduating from an institution of higher learning.

1) If you've been out of your last graduate program for 20 years, I assume you know better than to use texting speech out of the appropriate context (i.e., text messaging). If this is not the case, then whether you take offense to me calling you out on it is irrelevant.

2) I never said anything about reading the words. I was speaking of writing them. That's not a small difference. Understanding texting isn't a negative reflection on one's intelligence. Not knowing the difference between proper written English and texting is. (And in case you were wondering, common usage and proper English aren't directly related. There are many words in common usage that never become proper English. An easy example of this is any number of obscenities. They may be common, but they would not be mistaken for proper English.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And, that's where you go completely off track. If a part of writing is understanding your audience, and your audience is using words such as "pwned" ... then a good writer doesn't pitch a fit when they see the words used by that audience. MR is not (I repeat NOT) a series of formal thesis papers written by a bunch of pseudo intellectuals. It is an informal place where people are encouraged to express their opinions. As such, it is not your place to start coming down on people because they choose to use informal language, including slang, LOLCat speak, or any other language they decide to use.

I did not disparage the use of "pwned" in MR. In fact, if you'll go back and read what I wrote, I defended it:

Originally Posted by bhartman36

Having said that, I can't deny that pwned is a word, simply on that basis alone. Written and spoken words are only symbolic. As long as two or more people agree on what a particular set of written or spoken symbols mean, it's a word, in a literal sense. Its presence or absense in a dictionary ("Who's dictionary?" is also an interesting question) is immaterial. Shakespeare made up words all the time, and you don't hear people complaining about that, do ya?

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Now, if your point is that the students at your girlfriend's university are unable to use formal English when necessary in the pursuit of their education, then I suggest that school consider examining their admissions standards.

That's precisely why I declined to mention where she teaches. The Internet is a small place. I would prefer that people not know what she thought of the admissions standards there.

[QUOTE=RickyMaveety;434370]
I brought it up because you seem to have some sort of problem with people using shorthand expressions. It appears to be a very large problem as a matter of fact. There are a number of shorthand expressions, which are not words, that are in common usage in the English language. They are growing in number every day. They have been around for well over a century, some of them have been around for several centuries. One of them is SOS. Another one is CUL8TR. Yet another is PWNED Neither is a word. Both are shorthand expressions. One you don't seem to have a problem with. The other two you seem to be certain are only used by illiterates.[QUOTE=RickyMaveety;434370]

I don't believe I ever said they are only used by illiterates. What I said was that texting is contributing to illiteracy. I'm not so stringent as to think that anyone texting on a standard phone keypad in texting language is an illiterate. Sometimes it is just a matter of convenience, after all.

As I said before, I see it as contributing to illiteracy when it leaks into general usage. (I'm reminded at this point of the commercials that Cingular was running for a while, where the family actually speaks that way out loud.) I don't consider MR to be "general usage", for the simple reason that people on an ebook forum would probably be expected to have a certain familiarity with Internet jargon. The kind of spelling represented by texting, as others have already mentioned, far predates texting. My personal exposure to it goes back to the 1980's, with CompuServe's CB Simulator (and I'm relatively certain it wasn't new then). It was certainly a less extensive utilization of abbreviations, etc., but it did exist (BRB, CYA, TTYL, etc.).

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Well, yes. It is no worse than PWNED. No more or less a shorthand expression. It's just been in use longer.

Again, look back. I didn't say I had a problem with pwned, in particular. I especially didn't say I had a problem with such a word used in this forum.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

And even spelling changes over time. Hell, it even changes between the UK and the USA.

ABsolutely true. Where did I say spelling didn't change? Spelling certainly changes. What's that got to do with anything? There are any number of differences between British and American English, in terms of spelling.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Spelling evolves as the language changes. You're the expert. Go read Pepys' Diary and try telling me that spelling hasn't changed.

Chaucer is possibly an even better example, but I don't think that has anything to do with what we're discussing. For one thing, regardless of how a language changes, there are still standards for spelling and grammar associated with the language. If you write "wyfe" when you're writing for a modern audience in English, you've misspelled the word. Similarly, when you write "cya", when you mean "see you", you've misspelled the phrase, because the rules of English as they currently stand don't allow for that spelling. You might be a visionary, but in the meantime, you're still incorrect.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

I appreciate that you, personally, don't like the fact that the language is changing, and that it is possible that it may become more phonetic and even more abbreviated over time. However, that's just tough. It's going to happen no matter how much you bitch and moan about it, and no matter how many people you insult by calling them illiterate or lazy.

It's actually questionable whether any of the changes we've been talking about will stick in the language, given the fact that they are somewhat technology-based. I expect terms like LOL to last, because it actually expresses something somewhat awkward to write out (as emoticons do, sometimes). Those terms coined strictly to deal with cramped keyboards, or limited bandwidth, could certainly die out. It really depends on how much of a backlash there is, at this point. Now that the necessity of that shorthand is almost gone, there is less of a purpose for that kind of thing. Hopefully, the amount of time that the texting shorthand stayed in use was short enough that it doesn't do lasting damage.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

It's not obvious at all. You post that those of us who use certain words or abbreviations in texting or in informal writing at sites such as this are illiterate and lazy. How in the hell is that supposed to be "obvious" that you were not trying to be offensive?

If you had read exactly what I wrote, from the first post onward, you would have seen that I don't have an issue with such language on MR, or in other Internet contexts.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Could you actually try harder to be offensive?? That must be amazing. And by that, I mean harder than stating that my mother's skills in English clearly didn't get to me by osmosis. That wasn't intended to be offensive?? How about where you said that you clearly had more knowledge of the English language or of languages in general? Not supposed to be offensive??

I stated that I did not enter the thread to be offensive. When I was attacked, though, I responded in kind. You'll probably notice that I did not respond in that way to anyone else here. That's not a coincidence.

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Oh, and for the record, my mother WAS one of my teachers at the undergraduate level, and a damned good one at that. Although, she was not one of my teachers at the graduate level. She taught me evenings during the period I was taking university courses while still a 10th and 11th grader, before I left to do work-study in Europe.

I am frankly surprised that you feel the need to expound so much on your education. If you'll read what I originally wrote, you'll see that I was not disparaging to anyone's use of the word "pwned" on this forum. I was making a statement about the use of texting "language" in general usage, out of laziness and general illiteracy, and noting that it was contributing to illiteracy when students mistake it for actual English. As I said in the beginning, I don't consider MR to be a bastion of correct speech in any sense of the term.