On the discussion of socialism, two things bother me - the term "fair" and the term "State".
Who or what is the State? When you get down to the final analysis, isn't there some person or persons that really make the decision? If so, are those persons just "more equal" or have special status?
What is fair? Is fairness that each person gets some specified benefit and provides some specified contribution? Or is it like in the Ayn Rand novel Atlas Shrugged - "From each according to his abilities. To each according to his needs."? What seems fair to you may not seem fair to me, so who decides. According to the Wikipedia quote that Wodin posted, there seems to be some disagreement even among socialists.
I think different ideas of fairness is really the underlying cause of much of the disagreement on the thread.
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