Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer
It is my opinion that ol and ul elements are best left to non-ebook usage. They offer little benefit (and plenty of disadvantages) to static content to be rendered by multiple ebook readers/apps.
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Agreed.
Worst cases:
- cut-off content
- Large amounts of text within an <li> may not render on next page.
Medium cases:
- Busted numbering
- <ol> lists starting at 1 no matter what
- Not gracefully handling non-sequential numbering (1, 59, 100).
Lesser cases:
- Piss-poor support for CSS/HTML Styling.
- Capitals, Lowercase, Greek, [...]
- 1), 1., (1), [1], [1.1], [...]
- Want certain symbols instead of a bullet?
- The <ol> number itself becoming cropped (especially when it reaches double-digits).
If you hardcoded in the numbers/styling, it would work across all readers... and it's not very likely the book you're digitizing is going to change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiapDealer
Numbers and bullets are not that difficult to code/style manually when you only have to do it once. It'd be different if one was building dynamic content from database records.
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Agreed.
The thing that sucks is hardcoded lists aren't as Accessible (not as easy to navigate), and it won't look as pretty (proper indentation/alignment).
... but in this rare case, I would say maximum compatibility trumps all the list bugs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
Your first link failed. I checked out the other.
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All fixed now (I accidentally added space in the URL).
It was just that same thread, just linked to the very 1st post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
Where do I go to get all the fallbacks required!
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Experience, testing, reading up on MobileRead, etc.
But best advice is to KISS, and don't go overboard with relying on complicated CSS + overrides, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
I've been trying to follow the line of Jiminy Panoz and the Blitz framework.
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Ehhh... I strongly recommend against "resets" + enormous CSS files.
lumpynose posted a few threads in 2019 bringing up "Standard Ebooks" + Blitz (and similar), and I wrote quite a few in-depth PMs discussing many of the problems. I'll have to see if I can dig those out.
The biggest issue is these things may work on latest iBooks, etc., but break on many real-life devices and override many user-chosen preferences.
And then you throw the 900 pound gorilla in the room, Amazon with MOBI (KFX/KF8/KF7)... and that overly-complicated CSS is going to explode.
If you're designing an EPUB3-for-iBooks-only, okay, maybe you can get away with using a bit more advanced code...
But if you're designing an EPUB-for-everyone or EPUB-to-convert-to-Kindle, then you have to be
much, much more conservative with your code.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
I tried to go back and find where the lists were recommended (and did another search), but I think it must have been on other sites such as Stackoverflow, Github etc. — and they appeared to be experienced).
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Be careful on the Ebooks Stack Exchange, there's
a ton of awful information on there.
And as I said previously, a lot of those tricks may look fine on the latest versions, but will break when tested across a variety of devices/apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
Anyway, so, ol and ul lists don't work? That seems to be the opposite to the presenter at the Ebookcraft 2019 recommended by Tex2009ans above [see around 19.55]. Her point at that stage was don't rely on CSSS, but just basic HTML and her whole point (it seemed to me) was that the person who didn't use a the list tag ended up with bad presentation when the CSS was removed. I have to admit, I am confused about this.
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Lists are the one case where I strongly disagree with that presentation.
But keeping in mind "no CSS" as a possibility is always a good idea... so you want to use proper semantic markup. For example:
Do use:
- <i>/<em> instead of <span class="italics">
- <h1> instead of <p class="heading1">
- <blockquote><p></p></blockquote> instead of <p class="blockquote">
- <sup> instead of <span class="superscript">
- [...]
Whatever you do, don't use:
- <pre>
- It's a disaster on ereaders, and in many cases will go flying off the page because of not line-breaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
I would very much appreciate being pointed in the right direction for finding a list of all the pitfalls and fallback needs.
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KISS.
Use your <p>s, use your <h1-h6>, only use very basic CSS where needed:
Simple HTML:
Code:
<h2>Chapter 1</h2>
<p class="first">This is an article about X.</p>
<p>In <i>Example Book</i>, he stated:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Really long quotation.</p>
<p>And continuing.</p>
</blockquote>
[...]
with simple CSS:
Leave the rest up to the device/user preferences.
No need to clog up the book with cruft like this:
(Took this CSS out of latest InDesign book I worked on.)
InDesign/Hideous CSS Note: For example,
see this 2014 post of mine showing some InDesign spaghetti... compared to minimal HTML.
The ebook may "look okay" on the surface, but:
Whoops, I turn on Night Mode (color is forced black).
Whoops, I make the font sizes bigger (things start breaking).
Whoops, I decide to try to change from the embedded font (some devices won't override).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dabcar
I know that's not going to come in one place, but if anyone can point me to any resources that would help me get up to speed in a reasonable time without having to crawl through mountains of posts and websites (which has been my experience so far), I'd be grateful!
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In your favorite search engine, you could search:
Code:
any topic + Tex2002ans site:mobileread.com
I've probably written about everything under the sun at this point. There's no one location for all this info (although I've been working on compiling things the past year).
Hitch is also a fantastic source (runs one of the largest ebook conversion companies, Booknook):
Code:
any topic + Hitch site:mobileread.com
and she discusses a lot of the real-life issues/bugs that crop up.
The unfortunate reality is:
If you're putting a book up for sale, you still have to design ebooks with older/buggier devices in mind.
And for Amazon, you still have to workaround the old MOBI format (KF7).
You can't just ignore the old stuff and hope for the best. You'll get bad reviews, get books returned, your books taken down, etc.