[Dazrin]

I was finally able to finish this last week but am just now able to comment and read through the thread in a little more detail.

I think most things have been adequately covered so don't really have much to add at this late point.

The one thing that we didn't really discuss, and as stuartjmz said it was not subtle, was the patriotism aspect. Estraven's work towards getting Gethen to join the Ekumen, not just Karhide, versus the "love of country" and all that goes with that.

Some quotes:

I forgot what a king is, forgot that the king in his own eyes is Karhide, forgot what patriotism is and that he is, of necessity, the perfect patriot. "Let me ask you this, Mr. Ai: do you know, by your own experience, what patriotism is?" "No," I said..."I don't think I do. If by patriotism you don't mean the love of one's homeland, for that I do know." "No, I don't mean love when I say patriotism. I mean fear. The fear of the other. And its expressions are political, not poetical: hate, rivalry, aggression. It grow in us, that fear. It grows in us year by year. We've followed our road too far. And you, who come from a world that outgrew nations centuries ago, who hardly know what I'm talking about, who show us the new road--" He broke off.

And from near the end:

And I wondered, not for the first time, what patriotism is, what the love of country truly consists of, how that yearning loyalty that had shaken my friend's voice arises, and how so real a love can become, too often, so foolish and vile a bigotry. Where does it go wrong?

Before that, but more illustrative of what stuck out to me, and answering the question that Estraven just posed:

"Hate Orgoreyn? No, how should I? How does one hate a country, or love one? Tibe talks about it; I lack the trick of it. I know people, I know towns, farms, hills and rivers and rocks, I know how the sun at sunset in autumn falls on the side of a certain plowland in the hills; but what is the sense of giving a boundary to all that, of giving it a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply? What is love of one's country; is it hate of one's uncountry? Then it's not a good thing. Is it simply self-love? That's a good thing, but one mustn't make a virtue of it, or a profession....

That last line seems to be where people tend to go wrong these days. [Extreme] patriotism has become either a virtue or, all too often, a profession, or at least a criteria.