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Greg Anos · 03-05-2018, 10:09 AM

Picking up rant from Vent and rant thread about becoming a software engineer - per moderator's request.

Katsunami
"Just read on one of the biggest job vacancy sites in the Netherlands that it is...

... A great idea to put in some job application to become a programmer or a software engineer. There's lots of work in that sector, a shortage of people, and you don't need a diploma; most companies are happy to teach you the skills on the job, and if all else fails, there's always Google."

So that is the status of the job of software engineer nowadays, junk drain for anyone who doesn't have a proper job? You don't need an education, because you can just Google everything?

Now, that's all I needed to know to make me regret even more that I got into "the job of the future" 15 years ago.

And then, people keep asking why there are always so many problems with IT-related stuff in companies. If the above is actually TRUE and companies DO hire random people without a proper computer science education just because they're cheap, I can tell you why. If you hire junk employees who Google all of their stuff, you get junk software and/or infrastructure!

Yes, you can google an answer to some questions or look up documentation on a programming language or framework or whatever (I do too, because you can't know -everything- by heart), but you can't Google on the fly how to design a huge piece of software while you're doing it. You have to KNOW how to handle that. It's never going to work.

There's a huge discrepancy on the Dutch job market with regard to computer science.

Companies: Ask 75 skills, be acquainted with everything from systems programming and GUI design on the Web and everything in between, expecting people to know everything at every point in time, all the time...

The public: You don't need to know anything, you can learn everything on the job in a few weeks and Google the rest...

Realistic software engineers (like me): Both aren't true. Software engineers are people who know their stuff but don't know -everything- (you can't; you maybe could, in the 60's and 70's). We're trying to convince companies we know enough to do the job, and to convince the public that it's utterly stupid and impossible to try and start writing big software (enterprise-grade programs or bullet-proof firmware for use in factory automation for example) when you've never seen a line of code in your life, let alone have no education on how to design it.

I couldn't be happier if the government would put software engineer among the protected professions, just like architect. Nobody in their right mind thinks that anyone without an education in the field will be able to design a fracking building that has no structural problems. Then why does everybody think that those same people will be able to properly design a piece of software and expect it to have no problems and be maintainable?!

Making software engineer a protected profession would potentially solve a lot of problems in IT. Then, educate people to use stable, well known frameworks, libraries, and languages for their stuff, instead of trying to use the in-flux latest and greatest, or even trying to re-invent the wheel over and over again... (The profession is called "Software Engineer" and not "Software Experimenter" for a reason.)"

This hasn't changed in 50 years. Non technical people are always looking for a "magic bullet" to get rid of IT. To management, IT was a monetary sink hole, staffed by a bunch of uppity nerds, who had no respect for the corporate ladder. There are always salespeople willing to promise the moon "my stuff will cut your IT cost in half", cash the check, and run for the hills!

You may not realize it, but COBOL was the first of these "magic bullets" in 1958. I could fill half a page with the history of "magic bullets".

Some hardware, some software, some "wetware" (What was the great offshoring trend of the 2000's, but a way to get IT "at half the price"?)

There was a saying in the 1970's. . . ."If builders built buildings, the way programmers wrote programs, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."

03-05-2018, 10:09 AM	#271
Greg Anos Grand Sorcerer Posts: 11,532 Karma: 37057604 Join Date: Jan 2008 Device: Pocketbook	Picking up rant from Vent and rant thread about becoming a software engineer - per moderator's request. Katsunami "Just read on one of the biggest job vacancy sites in the Netherlands that it is... ... A great idea to put in some job application to become a programmer or a software engineer. There's lots of work in that sector, a shortage of people, and you don't need a diploma; most companies are happy to teach you the skills on the job, and if all else fails, there's always Google." So that is the status of the job of software engineer nowadays, junk drain for anyone who doesn't have a proper job? You don't need an education, because you can just Google everything? Now, that's all I needed to know to make me regret even more that I got into "the job of the future" 15 years ago. And then, people keep asking why there are always so many problems with IT-related stuff in companies. If the above is actually TRUE and companies DO hire random people without a proper computer science education just because they're cheap, I can tell you why. If you hire junk employees who Google all of their stuff, you get junk software and/or infrastructure! Yes, you can google an answer to some questions or look up documentation on a programming language or framework or whatever (I do too, because you can't know -everything- by heart), but you can't Google on the fly how to design a huge piece of software while you're doing it. You have to KNOW how to handle that. It's never going to work. There's a huge discrepancy on the Dutch job market with regard to computer science. Companies: Ask 75 skills, be acquainted with everything from systems programming and GUI design on the Web and everything in between, expecting people to know everything at every point in time, all the time... The public: You don't need to know anything, you can learn everything on the job in a few weeks and Google the rest... Realistic software engineers (like me): Both aren't true. Software engineers are people who know their stuff but don't know -everything- (you can't; you maybe could, in the 60's and 70's). We're trying to convince companies we know enough to do the job, and to convince the public that it's utterly stupid and impossible to try and start writing big software (enterprise-grade programs or bullet-proof firmware for use in factory automation for example) when you've never seen a line of code in your life, let alone have no education on how to design it. I couldn't be happier if the government would put software engineer among the protected professions, just like architect. Nobody in their right mind thinks that anyone without an education in the field will be able to design a fracking building that has no structural problems. Then why does everybody think that those same people will be able to properly design a piece of software and expect it to have no problems and be maintainable?! Making software engineer a protected profession would potentially solve a lot of problems in IT. Then, educate people to use stable, well known frameworks, libraries, and languages for their stuff, instead of trying to use the in-flux latest and greatest, or even trying to re-invent the wheel over and over again... (The profession is called "Software Engineer" and not "Software Experimenter" for a reason.)" This hasn't changed in 50 years. Non technical people are always looking for a "magic bullet" to get rid of IT. To management, IT was a monetary sink hole, staffed by a bunch of uppity nerds, who had no respect for the corporate ladder. There are always salespeople willing to promise the moon "my stuff will cut your IT cost in half", cash the check, and run for the hills! You may not realize it, but COBOL was the first of these "magic bullets" in 1958. I could fill half a page with the history of "magic bullets". Some hardware, some software, some "wetware" (What was the great offshoring trend of the 2000's, but a way to get IT "at half the price"?) There was a saying in the 1970's. . . ."If builders built buildings, the way programmers wrote programs, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization."